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Fukushima Prefecture AW139 crash land, no immediatefatalities

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Fukushima Prefecture AW139 crash land, no immediatefatalities

Old 10th Feb 2020, 06:43
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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When you actually have something of value to say AnFI, then we can debate it but I think you should apologise publicly for trying to tarnish the reputation of a the Wessex pilot with this
You live in a world where when a pilot simulates an emergency with cadet passengers on board(!), causing a TRDS failure, then screws up the response, everyone gets a medal and its a 'training problem'. You live in a fantasy world. Must be nice.
You have no idea what happened and the fact was that he saved the lives of most of the people on board with some skillful flying following a failure that would have tested any pilot. You should be ashamed.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 07:33
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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You have a point and I really hate criticism of pilots but you are a hypocrite having made a much worse criticism of a similar kind.
One case was incompetence (by system or pilot), with fatalities.
The other you criticise was not the pilot and was a 'success'

There is no evidence for your false assertion: "saved the lives of most of the people on board with some skillful flying".

and I AM NOT really criticising the pilot.
It is quite clear that the training (competence) was not there, as the reports make clear.
(so because the training was not there the pilot was not equipped to apply "Skillful Flying", was he?) .


BUT seriously for a moment:
You teach in this type. We hear from ST how schockingly badly the SIM behaves.
What is the actual behaviour of the aircraft if you fly at zero TR thrust, are you just a passenger in a Forrest Gump world?
Is it like this: "...you're an involuntary test pilot and might have little say in what the aircraft does, at least for a few seconds. With a rapidly rotating fuselage, pitch may become roll and roll may become pitch."
Do you understand this subject yourself?
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 09:08
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
Unfortunately there was no simulator that could be used for the Wessex and no interest, probably because the aircraft was approaching the end of its service life.
By the mid 90s we were sent down to Culdrose to do TR failures in the Sea King sim. Nothing like a Wessex inside of course, but the blades went round the right way so it at least responded in the correct manner. Not perfect at all, but better than nothing.

Originally Posted by AnFI View Post
SASless
"...maintain SandL with sideslip...Ē
In a Wessex?

Towards the end the instructor got us to set the aircraft in a particular configuration, then failed the TR without warning (we knew it was coming of course, that was the point of the exercise, but not exactly when). To a man we all crashed. We were then told that this was the configuration of the Wessex when the TR failed. When we repeated the exercise knowing it was coming, and got the throttles chopped smartly, most survived.

Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
BTW - who on earth refers to 'a sexy mushroom'????????
Youíve never seen me naked....
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 10:20
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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"in a Wessex?" I presume you disagree with the CAA on this:

"
  • This depends heavily on the yaw stiffness of the aircraft without TR thrust. For example, the Gazelle, Squirrel, Jetranger, Sea King and Wessex are relatively stable, whereas the Lynx and Puma are relatively unstable.
"
Maybe you are right and they are wrong?

"and got the throttles chopped smartly"
chopping the 'throttles' is normally a really bad idea, lowering the lever does what you need, most of the time, unless you want to lose the RRPM too??

and the Wessex case was not entirely without warning:

"However, the simulated yaw channel runaway manoeuvre involved the application of considerable sideforce, which with the resultant requirement for higher TR thrust, generated a high load on the tail structure. This caused increased bending forces in the tail boom, which tended to stretch the transmission train, and resulted in the minimal engagement of the disconnect coupling being lost. "

have a nice day.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 10:23
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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what's the 'yaw stiffness' on a 139 like? is it really as bad as ShyTorque suggests?
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 11:05
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AnFI View Post
what's the 'yaw stiffness' on a 139 like? is it really as bad as ShyTorque suggests?
I can only describe, how it is modelled in the Sim... but within 5-6 sec the nose will turn approximately 90 degrees to the right... if the pilots are not doing anything e.g. during cruise flight and the TR shaft failure occurs... and the turning tendency will continue...
Btw. e.g. S76 behaviour was modelled a similar way and AS332L1 (of course the nose was then turning to the left) as well.

Btw. I can understand your description: ”There are accident reports, an H369 in Australia is one, non-event. and a gazelle in UK where the drive shaft failures were bearly noticeable (in the Gazelle for HALF AN HOUR !!)”
Especially concerning ”the Gazelle case”... IMHO. the helicopters with a Fenestron Tail are different... when I got my EC135 TRI training in Germany, the EC TRI Didi B. told me his experience with a TR shaft failure... He could fly level flight with that failure and autorotate later on, when he was close by a suitable landing area. I don’t have any other referencies from pilots, who have experienced a real TR shaft failure.🤔

Cheers! 😉

Last edited by Search&Rescue; 10th Feb 2020 at 11:15.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 12:08
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Search&Rescue View Post
I donít have any other referencies from pilots, who have experienced a real TR shaft failure.🤔

Cheers! 😉
Last century, the CEO of the german gummibear factory HARIBO, Hans Riegel, lost the tailrotor of his A109 and managed to land safely at Cologne or Hangelar Airfield. As far as I remember the report, they didnt notice the loss at first....

skadi
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 12:31
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Still waiting for some detail on your experience in medium twins, either in the aircraft or a full motion sim AnFI.

When you can demonstrate that you have any understanding of what you are talking about then people might listen.

Some of us have been teaching TR malfunctions in aircraft and simulators for many years.......

BTW, the skillful flying was not becoming a passenger and managing to keep the aircraft upright and in a condition where a landing could be cushioned - that is why they didn't all die but you obviously know better......
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 12:52
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by skadi View Post
Last century, the CEO of the german gummibear factory HARIBO, Hans Riegel, lost the tailrotor of his A109 and managed to land safely at Cologne or Hangelar Airfield. As far as I remember the report, they didnt notice the loss at first....

skadi
Thanx for the additional info Skadi!

Concerning AW139, most of the ATO’s are instructing the pilots to autorotate in case of TR shaft failure during the cruise flight...
And the QRH Emerg guidence is vey clear concerning cruise flight:

Lower collective immediately!



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Old 10th Feb 2020, 15:46
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Search&Rescue View Post
Thanx for the additional info Skadi!

Concerning AW139, most of the ATOís are instructing the pilots to autorotate in case of TR shaft failure during the cruise flight...
And the QRH Emerg guidence is vey clear concerning cruise flight:

Lower collective immediately!


I hate that wording.
If you start farting about "assessing your running landing capability", and think you can carry out a running landing with suitable power and speed", the chances are, its going to be a messy finish!
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 17:19
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Non-PC Plod View Post
I hate that wording.
If you start farting about "assessing your running landing capability", and think you can carry out a running landing with suitable power and speed", the chances are, its going to be a messy finish!
Totally agree with you Non-PC Plod.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 22:40
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Non-PC Plod View Post
I hate that wording.
If you start farting about "assessing your running landing capability", and think you can carry out a running landing with suitable power and speed", the chances are, its going to be a messy finish!
My gut agrees with you, but (different type and model, to be sure) didn't one of the Brits in Afghanistan manage something like that with an Apache a few years ago? Can't remember if the TR was totally gone or if it was stuck ...
(Not sure of the original thread is on Mil Av or Rotor heads. )
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 07:47
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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I hate that wording.
If you start farting about "assessing your running landing capability", and think you can carry out a running landing with suitable power and speed", the chances are, its going to be a messy finish!
I think it is just Ass-covering so the manufacturer can say they offered another option to an engines off landing. We practised stuck TR landings on the 365 up to about 45 kts run on and that was only with about half an inch of left pedal applied - with a complete TR fail you are probably talking 80 kts unless you have a very strong crosswind from the right (for clockwise rotors) to help you keep straight.

ISTR the Apache was a TR drive failure and it was a very fast landing.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 14:00
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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MBB pushed the Run On Landing technique for the BK-117 and one Operator I worked for incorporated that into our training and check rides.

When doing a stuck right pedal exercise we found ourselves whizzing down the runway at 110 Knots IAS....I had the temerity to challenge our Chief Pilot's wisdom.

I proposed entering autorotation, pulling the engines to "Off", and landing with no engine power going to the drivetrain and a near zero groundspeed, saying I felt that would be far safer, smarter, and have a much better outcome.....it was not received well.

After all....did not the maker of the aircraft know better than anyone else about their machine?

The thought of doing that kind of landing....at night...with engines and rotor at full chat....with no pedal control....touching down at 110 knots having only collective movement to assist in yaw control......well...that just scared me to death.

I have done lots of touch down autorotations over my career...including two for real....and those are far easier on the flight suit and underwear than the other option would be.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 14:54
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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I seem to recall a -76 that made a successful run on landing following a T/R drive failure.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 16:10
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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As we mention successes....how about failed attempts..... I am sure there are plenty of those to recall.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 17:51
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
I seem to recall a -76 that made a successful run on landing following a T/R drive failure.
Engines OFF or ON? 🤔
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 04:27
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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S&R, from memory it was a write up in "Rotor & Wing" many, many years ago, as to details I don't recall, other than they ran off the side of the runway and came to a stop in the grass without inflicting further damage.
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 07:04
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
S&R, from memory it was a write up in "Rotor & Wing" many, many years ago, as to details I don't recall, other than they ran off the side of the runway and came to a stop in the grass without inflicting further damage.
Ok, thanx Megan! I was just wondering... Because I donít recall any power ON procedures/approaches/landings instructed e.g.
by Flight Safety in case of TR shaft failure... thatís why I was asking. 😉

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Old 12th Feb 2020, 10:50
  #80 (permalink)  
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https://mainichi.jp/articles/2020020...qBcmzpxuKpzbWI

Latest rumors point to a possible cause for the loss of control...
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