RAF go from Dambusters to Dam builders
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
Shy,
Was it done by Vertical Reference Long Line techniques....doors off or with bubble window doors.....or was the Crewman in back leaning out and providing directions to the Pilot flying.
Load lifting on a 100 foot strop certainly wasn't uncommon in my time
Joined: Jan 2013
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From: Midlands
I overheard an interesting conversation last night in a restaurant (I admit I cannot verify what was said so it's definitely rumour only).The gist of it was that dams like this were built with side spill outlets controlled by valves. These are meant to be used to control the maximum water level, to prevent over-topping of the wall but unfortunately these valves could no longer be opened at this dam, because the mechanism has rusted solid over many years.
Joined: Aug 2000
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Merely pointing out the following
As 350 would be quicker, cheaper and more accurate with a longline, reasons
1. Longline with single pilot more accurate so bags could be placed not dropped
2. The pick up could be much closer to the dam and hence shorter flight time
3. Pilot would be more used to a high number of cycles per hour along with the crew eg probably a bag every 1.5 minutes or so
4. Like flying on instruments lifting quickly and safely and accurately is a perishable skill
5. Takes seconds to hook a bag on to a longline hook
6. Most RAF pilots don't do it that regularly. I am just a novice at doing it as i have around 700 hours lifting. The military dont fly a huge amount of hours and not solely lifting, not their fault it is all to do with budgets.
It is really tools for the job.
I would agree that great training exercise, great PR for RAF and shows the public that we sorely need our military. but the question was is it cheaper and more efficient !
As 350 would be quicker, cheaper and more accurate with a longline, reasons
1. Longline with single pilot more accurate so bags could be placed not dropped
2. The pick up could be much closer to the dam and hence shorter flight time
3. Pilot would be more used to a high number of cycles per hour along with the crew eg probably a bag every 1.5 minutes or so
4. Like flying on instruments lifting quickly and safely and accurately is a perishable skill
5. Takes seconds to hook a bag on to a longline hook
6. Most RAF pilots don't do it that regularly. I am just a novice at doing it as i have around 700 hours lifting. The military dont fly a huge amount of hours and not solely lifting, not their fault it is all to do with budgets.
It is really tools for the job.
I would agree that great training exercise, great PR for RAF and shows the public that we sorely need our military. but the question was is it cheaper and more efficient !
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
If you can't get the bags closer because the roads are closed then the distance is the same.
What level of accuracy do you think could improve on a couple of centimetres - which is what was stated on the TV?
USL flying is absolute bread and butter to SH crews.
How much would a 350 operator charge the Govt for the service?
Is one 350 with a single bag really 3 times more efficient than one Chinook with 3 bags under it?
What level of accuracy do you think could improve on a couple of centimetres - which is what was stated on the TV?
USL flying is absolute bread and butter to SH crews.
How much would a 350 operator charge the Govt for the service?
Is one 350 with a single bag really 3 times more efficient than one Chinook with 3 bags under it?
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
What you overheard was absolute nonsense. The current pictures clearly show the weir at the top of the spillway. This controls the maximum level, no valves involved. Outlet valves will be at the bottom, possibly in a tunnel within the dam. These will be in regular use to control the flow from the reservoir, and will be maintained in good working order, certainly not allowed to "rust solid over many years".
There is now a new page on the BBC news site showing a photo attributed to the Canal and River Trust which shows the face of the dam. The "weir" is annotated as "Auxiliary Spillway" and appears to have been added later. The main spillway is lower down, as I was led to understand.
If the main spillway was serviceable, why is the water being pumped out from above (difficult, very expensive and potentially dangerous), rather than being allowed to drain naturally from below through the valves (i.e. main spillway)?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49220650
Joined: Aug 2000
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Crab
What is the roads closed got to do with it ? If you are the emergency services then you open them !
Lets assume that the bags are a mile from the drop zone, I suspect and knowing the area one could get them way closer. Then the 350 will have a turn round time of around 2 mins per bag. So 400 bags is 800 minutes or 13.3 hours call it 15 to be on the safe side.
We would have 2 pilots so at a real push could do those bags in a day
AS 350 £15000
Positioning £ 4000
Crew x 2 days £ 1800
Jet a1 £ 1800
Contingecy 15% £ 3120
So £ 25720 is the bill my company would charge. I might be wrong on teh distance, but that would be the advantage of the 350 and a longline.
Did you notice the bag rolling down the hill on the news ?
What is the roads closed got to do with it ? If you are the emergency services then you open them !
Lets assume that the bags are a mile from the drop zone, I suspect and knowing the area one could get them way closer. Then the 350 will have a turn round time of around 2 mins per bag. So 400 bags is 800 minutes or 13.3 hours call it 15 to be on the safe side.
We would have 2 pilots so at a real push could do those bags in a day
AS 350 £15000
Positioning £ 4000
Crew x 2 days £ 1800
Jet a1 £ 1800
Contingecy 15% £ 3120
So £ 25720 is the bill my company would charge. I might be wrong on teh distance, but that would be the advantage of the 350 and a longline.
Did you notice the bag rolling down the hill on the news ?
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
What is the roads closed got to do with it ? If you are the emergency services then you open them !
As Chinook 240 has pointed out - will you manage 24-hour ops in poor weather?
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 136
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From: Midlands
Two points:
There is now a new page on the BBC news site showing a photo attributed to the Canal and River Trust which shows the face of the dam. The "weir" is annotated as "Auxiliary Spillway" and appears to have been added later. The main spillway is lower down, as I was led to understand.
If the main spillway was serviceable, why is the water being pumped out from above (difficult, very expensive and potentially dangerous), rather than being allowed to drain naturally from below through the valves (i.e. main spillway)?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49220650
There is now a new page on the BBC news site showing a photo attributed to the Canal and River Trust which shows the face of the dam. The "weir" is annotated as "Auxiliary Spillway" and appears to have been added later. The main spillway is lower down, as I was led to understand.
If the main spillway was serviceable, why is the water being pumped out from above (difficult, very expensive and potentially dangerous), rather than being allowed to drain naturally from below through the valves (i.e. main spillway)?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49220650
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 136
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From: Midlands
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Because if you have evacuated an area because of the risk to life from the dam bursting, you would look pretty silly sending a load of civilian lorries inside that area if the dam did give way - it's just a sensible precaution you are happy to ignore to try and support your point about using a 350.
As Chinook 240 has pointed out - will you manage 24-hour ops in poor weather?
As Chinook 240 has pointed out - will you manage 24-hour ops in poor weather?
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,111
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Crab
So what is the cost of a chinnok then, i have told you how much I would do the job for, so money where your mouth is, how much is your chinook going to cost with all the crap that goes with it ?
Bet you the RAF can't even get close.to my cost. I am afraid the military is no where near as efficient as you think . Just because you can lift a 105 or an ISO container doesn't put you up there as utility Gods I am afraid
So what is the cost of a chinnok then, i have told you how much I would do the job for, so money where your mouth is, how much is your chinook going to cost with all the crap that goes with it ?
Bet you the RAF can't even get close.to my cost. I am afraid the military is no where near as efficient as you think . Just because you can lift a 105 or an ISO container doesn't put you up there as utility Gods I am afraid
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
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From: Hertfordshire, UK.
At the risk of boring. The cost of the Chinook and crew is unknowable. If they were not doing this repair, they would be doing normal exercise and training. You cannot easily calculate the cost per hour of items that are budgeted per year and NEVER intended to be sold by the hour. That's not what the Army do. When they are called in to lay sandbags and rescue people - is that charged? Do the local govt work out which commercial company could do that and how much first?
The cost of a commercial outfit is known, because that is what they do and are set up to charge by the hour/day or whatever. But, it is my contention, the Govt is going to tell the MoD to NOT charge the cost to anyone. So you cannot work out the cost.
Lastly, I think that many tax payers would rather the Army do this than a commercial outfit.
The cost of a commercial outfit is known, because that is what they do and are set up to charge by the hour/day or whatever. But, it is my contention, the Govt is going to tell the MoD to NOT charge the cost to anyone. So you cannot work out the cost.
Lastly, I think that many tax payers would rather the Army do this than a commercial outfit.
Joined: Jun 2016
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,318
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From: Brantisvogan
Meh. Who cares, watching a chinook doing the job is just far more interesting than someone with a maverick complex shuffling about in a french squirrel.
viva la Brexit.
or not.
whichever annoys the most the fastest
viva la Brexit.
or not.
whichever annoys the most the fastest
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 276
From: GMT
Merely pointing out the following
As 350 would be quicker, cheaper and more accurate with a longline, reasons
1. Longline with single pilot more accurate so bags could be placed not dropped
2. The pick up could be much closer to the dam and hence shorter flight time
3. Pilot would be more used to a high number of cycles per hour along with the crew eg probably a bag every 1.5 minutes or so
4. Like flying on instruments lifting quickly and safely and accurately is a perishable skill
5. Takes seconds to hook a bag on to a longline hook
6. Most RAF pilots don't do it that regularly. I am just a novice at doing it as i have around 700 hours lifting. The military dont fly a huge amount of hours and not solely lifting, not their fault it is all to do with budgets.
It is really tools for the job.
I would agree that great training exercise, great PR for RAF and shows the public that we sorely need our military. but the question was is it cheaper and more efficient !
As 350 would be quicker, cheaper and more accurate with a longline, reasons
1. Longline with single pilot more accurate so bags could be placed not dropped
2. The pick up could be much closer to the dam and hence shorter flight time
3. Pilot would be more used to a high number of cycles per hour along with the crew eg probably a bag every 1.5 minutes or so
4. Like flying on instruments lifting quickly and safely and accurately is a perishable skill
5. Takes seconds to hook a bag on to a longline hook
6. Most RAF pilots don't do it that regularly. I am just a novice at doing it as i have around 700 hours lifting. The military dont fly a huge amount of hours and not solely lifting, not their fault it is all to do with budgets.
It is really tools for the job.
I would agree that great training exercise, great PR for RAF and shows the public that we sorely need our military. but the question was is it cheaper and more efficient !
I spent about 2000 hours slinging loads on Chinooks - everything from bags of aggregate to boats, to containers, to towers. But I'll bend to your 700 hours of p1ssing around in a paraffin budgie. Yes, they should have got Jo Blow with his squirrel in, as long as the weather is good, which it wasn't.
We get it, your company has idle AS350's. If your phone didn't ring, there may have been a reason.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: EGDC
Static source - it used to be called Military Aid to the Civil Community (MAAC) but it's probably got a new and funky title now.
The Chinook also used to be a on a 2-hour national standby which would be very expensive for a civil operator to provide.
The Chinook also used to be a on a 2-hour national standby which would be very expensive for a civil operator to provide.
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 103
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From: s e england
From the time when I spent a lot of time around Toddbrook Reservoir, there are 4 water control methods. The main inlet stream can be diverted around the lake, there is a small low level outflow pipe, and a small weir copes with normal overflow conditions. The large auxiliary spillway is there to take extreme rainfall. The latter was replaced / installed in the 60's or 70's. Most of the time the water level is maintained well below the level of both the weir and the auxiliary spillway, and in the years I was there, I never saw the spillway in active use. I assume that on this occasion the stream inlet control was overwhelmed by the sheer amount of water, hence the need to dump bags of aggregate there.