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EC135 training helicopter crashed in a corn field in Germany

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EC135 training helicopter crashed in a corn field in Germany

Old 4th Jul 2019, 22:33
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spunk View Post
Ignorance or arrogance?
Neither. Itís turd glittering. 450h is what consultants and contractors have left for the actual Army, after they commodified and plundered it (just like every other common good). So if 450h is what your soldiers are worth, then 450 is the new optimum.
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 01:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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In your civvy world, you turn out instructors who have just passed their commercial licence. They only have 100 hrs more than their zero-time student. At least these instructors have probably 2 or 3 years in the squadron.
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 01:43
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
In your civvy world, you turn out instructors who have just passed their commercial licence. They only have 100 hrs more than their zero-time student. At least these instructors have probably 2 or 3 years in the squadron.
I highly doubt low hour civil instructors would be allowed to do what happened here.

Flying around about 100 hours per year is a complete joke, who can stay current doing that....
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 07:47
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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exactly

And how many PPLH holders are doing 100 hrs a year?

Just hung up my boots
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 16:16
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Just as many as trying to fly fast turns 8ft from the ground; everything is relative.

However, I have more hours than they did, and I would not try to instruct anyone (and yes, I can get an instructor qualification as a PPL here in EASA land). I would hope that army combat pilots get more than 2hrs a week (on average), but seems they donít
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 16:24
  #26 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by ersa View Post
I highly doubt low hour civil instructors would be allowed to do what happened here.

Flying around about 100 hours per year is a complete joke, who can stay current doing that....
In my time in the military, NATO required a pilot currency minimum of 12 hours per month to retain "combat ready" status. Obviously, some 25 years later, things aren't the same.
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 16:29
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding "on average"
What the articles linked by JohnDixon and me are missing is the fact that of that approximate dozen airworthy choppers per type a significant number are on missions in foreign countries like Mali or Kosovo.
Good luck for those who are not there in terms of family life.
Bad luck for their logbook.
And they are not exactly flying training sorties there either.
One could argue that the real situation is worse than the numbers suggest.
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 15:26
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Has there been any report released as yet?
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 19:13
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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We'll never see one ... unless there is some parlamentary discovery request.
As no civil aircraft was involved the investigation is solely handeled by the general flight safety of the Bundeswehr. The BFU is not involved. And the military never releases public reports ...
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 19:17
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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The military does sometimes - but you need to know, where to look ;-)
https://www.bundeswehr-journal.de/ta...lugsicherheit/
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 19:25
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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What I've found there qualifies as news but hardly as accident investigation report.
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Old 25th Jul 2020, 16:08
  #32 (permalink)  
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There was some data around a while back that accidents were more likely to occur at experience levels of 500 hours, 1,000 hours and then multiples thereof. All to do with the experience/complacency curves crossing at those points. We were definitely made aware of those points from a Flight Safety point of view. As for this accident from over a year ago, I will be duly surprised if anything new comes out from having relatively inexperienced crew flying close to the ground, unless something important fell off during a critical stage, being smited by the earth will remain depressingly familiar.
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Old 26th Jul 2020, 14:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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The question of hours is much the same as in the 60s. In the Navy we were rapidly expanding helicopters so the requirement for instructors meant that a lot became QHIs after only one tour. As Shy Torque #10 says, there were plenty of "incidents"" during mutual training as the boundaries were pushed (the Top Gun mentality meant you tried to be better than your buddy). That is why you were accepted for military training in the first place - fly the edge of the flight envelope or the opposition would. Typical annual hours in the FAA were 2-250 hours p.a. until the Sea King arrived. In the 70s there were multiple fuel crises and non exercise we were limited to 10 hours per month of which 5 were night. Not good if you were on a small ship in crowded European waters!
Military flying can never be 'cost effective' until called on for real so is always subject to budget restrictions. We can use simulators to save costs to maintain some handling skills but only the aircraft ever provides "experience".
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Old 26th Jul 2020, 18:24
  #34 (permalink)  
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Unless the report proofs that this accident had anything to do with a technical failure, I blame the military for trying to train low time pilots to become flight instructors.

At this level, they cannot even fly as Pic in a combat mission, left alone teach anyone to fly outside a helicopter traffic pattern..
This is the military - not a commercial ATO training in the pattern for 50 hours before doing cross country at 500 ft.. (exaggerating a little bit here..)
 
Old 26th Jul 2020, 20:06
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hueyracer View Post
Unless the report proofs that this accident had anything to do with a technical failure, I blame the military for trying to train low time pilots to become flight instructors.

At this level, they cannot even fly as Pic in a combat mission, left alone teach anyone to fly outside a helicopter traffic pattern..
This is the military - not a commercial ATO training in the pattern for 50 hours before doing cross country at 500 ft.. (exaggerating a little bit here..)
Anyone know if Creamies are still a thing in MFTS?
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Old 27th Jul 2020, 14:38
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know if Creamies are still a thing in MFTS?
I think it is still, and always has been, a FW thing. You used to have to do 2 tours in the RAF before QHI and I would have been the first to do it after first tour in NI had they not need Wessex 'experience' (1000 hours in 2 year tour) in Cyprus so another colleague went QHI after one tour a few months later.

Most people who did NI as a tour in the 80s (and probably 70s and 90's) easily broke 1000 hours in their 2 years and it was all short hop, multiple take offs and landings, usually at MAUW and in shite weather with a very real small arms and SAM threat, so brilliant training for a first tourist.

And just before anyone starts - I know it wasn't 'Nam but for a peace-time situation there was a lot of shooting and bombing going on.

Last edited by [email protected]; 27th Jul 2020 at 14:49.
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Old 27th Jul 2020, 14:47
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
And just before anyone starts - I know it wasn't 'Nam but for a peace-time situation there was a lot of shooting and bombing going on.
Aviation is judged differently though. Youíd have to be a bit of a throbber to genuinely mock a SAR boy or girl for having no war medals when they got out of bed to go and fly in skoshie weather when everyone else would have scrubbed.
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Old 27th Jul 2020, 15:04
  #38 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I think it is still, and always has been, a FW thing. You used to have to do 2 tours in the RAF before QHI and I would have been the first to do it after first tour in NI had they not need Wessex 'experience' (1000 hours in 2 year tour) in Cyprus so another colleague went QHI after one tour a few months later.

Most people who did NI as a tour in the 80s (and probably 70s and 90's) easily broke 1000 hours in their 2 years and it was all short hop, multiple take offs and landings, usually at MAUW and in shite weather with a very real small arms and SAM threat, so brilliant training for a first tourist.

And just before anyone starts - I know it wasn't 'Nam but for a peace-time situation there was a lot of shooting and bombing going on.
I was sent to do the RAF QHI course at the end of 1983, after only one RW tour. ďSentď is the word as it certainly wasnít my personal choice. I didnít think I had enough experience with only 1400 hours. I was later sent to do the RAF QFI course with less than 200 hours fixed wing flying.
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Old 27th Jul 2020, 16:52
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, but you Puma boys were 'special' Shy
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Old 27th Jul 2020, 17:37
  #40 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Ah, but you Puma boys were 'special' Shy
Not sure about that. We first tourist youngsters must have been a big worry to our flight commanders, tbh.
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