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22 Bell Kiowa 206B-1 for sale Australia

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22 Bell Kiowa 206B-1 for sale Australia

Old 20th Feb 2019, 00:55
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
How did they manage then to get 44023 on the register? The operator (commercial) is listed as the manufacturer?????
There are several methods: a new Type Certificate (TC), or an ATC (Amended TC), or a STC (Supplemental TC). Technically you are not going around the original TC. Think of the old Garlick UH-1Hs. They TC'd surplus UH-1s (with no TC) into restricted category aircraft. There were also about 4 or 5 other "new" TCs on Hueys. A more recent is here:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...0005SERev2.pdf

Without more info or specific knowledge of things down under, I would guess 44023 falls under one of the above listed methods and the operator is the "owner" of the TC or whatever.

Last edited by wrench1; 20th Feb 2019 at 01:09.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 01:17
  #22 (permalink)  
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megan

Well of course CASA could not make a mistake, so when you look up the Australian register for VH AGK and the manufacturer of what appear to be a Bell oh58 is nominated as the same as the owner and operator, in the records, that indeed it must in fact be true.
I wonder if they have (the owner) manufactured any other Bell look a likes. Good old CASA. Not sure how Bell would view the aircraft records held and overseen by the Australian government not showing them as the manufacturer. I wonder what the lawyers would make of this if there were a court case for liability related to the manufacturer, and this aircraft, and a third party. After all this is the official record, and there is plenty of places that need signing when you apply for registration for an aircraft.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 06:35
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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It is certainly interesting as350 re 58's in Oz, there are a total of 17 X OH-58A's AMT have "manufactured", serials 008, 009, 010, 011 (Australian AMT commercial manufacturer serials, no Bell listed), 44018, 44019, 44023, 44027, 44028, 44031, 44034, 44049, 44051, 44053, 44054 (manufactured by another Australian commercial operator), 44064, 44070, 44073, plus an OH-58C 70-15092 manufactured by Bell.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 13:27
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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The Certification of this helicopter conforms to CASA Type Certificate VR507. https://www.casa.gov.au/file/96391/d...token=ID2655YX
The confusion appears to originate from attempting to fit a product certified under the CASA process into the regulatory process of another (FAA).
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 13:40
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by as350nut View Post
Not sure how Bell would view the aircraft records held and overseen by the Australian government not showing them as the manufacturer.
Originally Posted by megan;
OH-58A's AMT have "manufactured", serials 008, 009, 010, 011 (Australian AMT commercial manufacturer serials, no Bell listed)
FYI: Type Certificate holders are not necessarily the actual producer (manufacturer) of an aircraft. The TC is merely a design approval whereas an aircraft gets produced under a Production Certificate (PC).

In the case of the 58 above it had a new design (TC VR507) approved by CASA here:
https://www.casa.gov.au/file/96391/download?token=ID2655YX

There are 4 similar FAA TCs that provide approval to operate certain 58s in the Restricted Category. Some of these "new" TCs require the addition of a 2nd data plate with the current TC holders name like this (Page 7): http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...DE_SN_List.pdf

As to how Bell views these changes, they have zero input or direct liability for those aircraft approved under a separate TC. Except that is in a US Tort trial where everybody is libel.

So in the case of the B-1s, if someone where enterprising enough, they could pursue the same tack as AMT did with the 58s and get their own CASA TC approval. Or, maybe AMT could amend their 58 TC to include the B-1s which I don't think would be much of a stretch.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 20:14
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Having previously certificated the former Canadian Air Force helicopters, I don't think they'll have any problem obtaining a new TC for these machines. The likelihood of adding them to TCDS VR507 is extremely unlikely, as all references and limitations are directly applicable to the CH-136 Kiowa configuration, publications, instructions and limitations. A new TC will have all the applicable references to the Australian Army configuration and manuals which will be specifically required to form the basis of certification. They are obviously already capable of producing all the updated certification documentation for a Restricted TC from their previous TCDS for the OH-58A.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 23:36
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cyclic Hotline View Post
I don't think they'll have any problem obtaining a new TC for these machines.
Curious. Is there that big a demand in Australia for restricted single turbine aircraft for a company/individual to go through the TC process/cost on these B-1s?
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 23:39
  #28 (permalink)  
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Thank you Wrench1 for the explanation
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 00:16
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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There will be an issue sourcing MR blades.
The MRGB outputs at 360 RPM instead of 390 for the civil version.
Tail boom is slightly longer.
Don't know if Tompkin's OH 58s have these differences.
The engines are 250C20 and we're maintained in civil workshops.
FWIW
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 01:03
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wrench1 View Post
Curious. Is there that big a demand in Australia for restricted single turbine aircraft for a company/individual to go through the TC process/cost on these B-1s?
I really couldn't answer that question. But I think there is a definite demand for good, inexpensive and supportable helicopters for private operators or commercial (Restricted) operation. Anyone that develops the certification basis for this helicopter should be able to configure them for sale, or alternatively, buy the lot and sell them ready to fly away. I suspect they may be rather popular. I wouldn't mind a PC-9 myself.
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 20:31
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Having worked on these exact machines and the civil 206 there are a lots of differences between the two. Parts over the long term could be difficult to source as even the gearboxes use different part number components internally due to run dry requirements of the military version, eg, planetary carriers of the MRGB in the OH 58 are metal, the 206 uses plastic ones.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 04:06
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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As the holder of the TC, you become the "Manufacturer" of the Product and if you have access to the original drawings, or the ability to essentially replicate the PMA process, you can make all the parts you want. Of course, you may be able to qualify the original OEM parts for the same application by identicality.

I'm interested in the configuration and differences in the Rotor and Drivetrain System with a different NR and Main Rotor diameter? Does anyone have a link to good data on this?
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 05:19
  #33 (permalink)  
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What is the chance (or has it happened) that the OH58D 4 blade (406) with c30R might ever be sold off?
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 14:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by as350nut View Post
What is the chance (or has it happened) that the OH58D 4 blade (406) with c30R might ever be sold off?
Doubtful. The D model is a completely different animal than the A/C models. The main issue is there are a number of integrated systems that will leave the aircraft in an unflyable condition once it goes through the de-mil process. Best bet is the D models will be sold off to foreign governments that have a role for them.

However, as soon as the US Navy procures their next basic rotorwing trainer you'll probably see a number of TH-57s hit the surplus market. The 57 is an off-the-shelf 206BIII complete with a TC.

[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Cyclic Hotline;
you can make all the parts you want]
True. But the costs of tooling up and certifying a small run of specialized components for 22 aircraft would probably not balance out. The better bet would be to substitute existing gearboxes, etc from 58s or civilian 206s and upgrade the B-1s under the new TC. In my opinion/experience modifying the B-1 airframe to accept a 206BIII drivetrain would be more doable considering Bell has upgraded that same airframe multiple times since the original 206A and has a number of approved OEM SIs and IIs that could serve as the basis for the swap under the new CASA TC.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 00:41
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wrench1 View Post
Best bet is the D models will be sold off to foreign governments that have a role for them.
Last I heard Greece was buying 70 odd; no idea how they’ll pay for them. Unsure where the rest of them are headed, if anywhere. I’d wouldn’t be surprised if Iraq was interested in acquiring a few (at the right price), they haven’t had a good run with their mod’d 407s over the last few years.

Cheers

BE
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 08:47
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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The auctions are under way:

https://www.graysonline.com/promotions/military

The spare parts are mind boggling. Literally dozens of C20 turbines etc.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 17:11
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krypton_john View Post
The auctions are under way:

https://www.graysonline.com/promotions/military

The spare parts are mind boggling. Literally dozens of C20 turbines etc.
Look closely at some of the part numbers on the labels, plenty of C2OB part numbers, so worth a lot more than plain C20...........a lot more.

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Old 27th Feb 2019, 03:33
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Oh yeah, I assumed they were all C20B...
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 05:14
  #39 (permalink)  
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What an engine!
Allison Model 250
30,000 MADE 16,000 in use

C20B 420hp
C40 715 hp
there are
C18
C18A
20
20B
20F
20J
20R
20 R /1
20 R /2
20 R/4
C20G
C20W

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Old 27th Feb 2019, 13:08
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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A once in a lifetime opportunity for Oz to create a volunteer civil air patrol organisation.

It would help to reboot cadet air corps.

Federal election around the corner, timing is good.


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