US HEMS Accident
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 71
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Absolutely, SASless !
Our job is to fly a patient from A to B and in this case, it looks like it was a transfer between hospital.
She could have wait one hour and they all will be OK today.
We are doing a job, maybe a special job, but it requires to respect some limits.
There is no hero there, the US has to get out of this stupid thinking.
We are no here to kill everybody on board to save one.
Anybody flying at night knows how difficult it is in reality in those conditions, pushing weather without the proper equipment to help you and having clear limits is just playing "Russian roulette".
Nobody learn, nobody !
It is like a repeat during the last 20 years, same thing again and again.
I believe the US refuse to adopt strict night minimum and still push pilots to fly when they shouldn't be like in the 80's.
And I won't even talk about the FAA..
One hour away from dead or alive !
Our job is to fly a patient from A to B and in this case, it looks like it was a transfer between hospital.
She could have wait one hour and they all will be OK today.
We are doing a job, maybe a special job, but it requires to respect some limits.
There is no hero there, the US has to get out of this stupid thinking.
We are no here to kill everybody on board to save one.
Anybody flying at night knows how difficult it is in reality in those conditions, pushing weather without the proper equipment to help you and having clear limits is just playing "Russian roulette".
Nobody learn, nobody !
It is like a repeat during the last 20 years, same thing again and again.
I believe the US refuse to adopt strict night minimum and still push pilots to fly when they shouldn't be like in the 80's.
And I won't even talk about the FAA..
One hour away from dead or alive !
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 917
Likes: 11
From: Tax-land.
Absolutely, SASless !
Our job is to fly a patient from A to B and in this case, it looks like it was a transfer between hospital.
She could have wait one hour and they all will be OK today.
We are doing a job, maybe a special job, but it requires to respect some limits.
There is no hero there, the US has to get out of this stupid thinking.
We are no here to kill everybody on board to save one.
Anybody flying at night knows how difficult it is in reality in those conditions, pushing weather without the proper equipment to help you and having clear limits is just playing "Russian roulette".
Nobody learn, nobody !
It is like a repeat during the last 20 years, same thing again and again.
I believe the US refuse to adopt strict night minimum and still push pilots to fly when they shouldn't be like in the 80's.
And I won't even talk about the FAA..
One hour away from dead or alive !
Our job is to fly a patient from A to B and in this case, it looks like it was a transfer between hospital.
She could have wait one hour and they all will be OK today.
We are doing a job, maybe a special job, but it requires to respect some limits.
There is no hero there, the US has to get out of this stupid thinking.
We are no here to kill everybody on board to save one.
Anybody flying at night knows how difficult it is in reality in those conditions, pushing weather without the proper equipment to help you and having clear limits is just playing "Russian roulette".
Nobody learn, nobody !
It is like a repeat during the last 20 years, same thing again and again.
I believe the US refuse to adopt strict night minimum and still push pilots to fly when they shouldn't be like in the 80's.
And I won't even talk about the FAA..
One hour away from dead or alive !
Atta'boy!
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
Brutal
I thoroughly agree with your analysis and her judgment was probably skewed further by the fact she used to be a a rescue swimmer involved in real life-saving and may have approached her new job on HEMS with the same attitude.
If this was her first 'proper' job rather than sightseeing and basic instruction and she started in the HEMS business working for what seems like a 'cowboy' operator with a poor attitude to safety and weather limits - the holes in the cheese were lining up against her.
Could the reason she accepted the flight was because of her lack of experience? I am not talking about her flying hours or instructional....but many guys and girls think that flying a helicopter around the sunny grand canyon, or sight seeing trips in Florida is the same as a job at night up north in foul weather conditions? (or even in the day for that matter)?
Lots of pilots are of the assumption that just because they have their licence and lots of hours they can fly anywhere and do anything? Maybe management should ask the questions in an interview to find out what "real" experience they have ,or think twice when reading one's Resume' before hiring?
Lots of pilots are of the assumption that just because they have their licence and lots of hours they can fly anywhere and do anything? Maybe management should ask the questions in an interview to find out what "real" experience they have ,or think twice when reading one's Resume' before hiring?
If this was her first 'proper' job rather than sightseeing and basic instruction and she started in the HEMS business working for what seems like a 'cowboy' operator with a poor attitude to safety and weather limits - the holes in the cheese were lining up against her.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 319
Likes: 56
From: On land
I thoroughly agree with your analysis and her judgment was probably skewed further by the fact she used to be a a rescue swimmer involved in real life-saving and may have approached her new job on HEMS with the same attitude.
If this was her first 'proper' job rather than sightseeing and basic instruction and she started in the HEMS business working for what seems like a 'cowboy' operator with a poor attitude to safety and weather limits - the holes in the cheese were lining up against her.
If this was her first 'proper' job rather than sightseeing and basic instruction and she started in the HEMS business working for what seems like a 'cowboy' operator with a poor attitude to safety and weather limits - the holes in the cheese were lining up against her.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
Not exactly definitive.
She was a rescue swimmer and in the article her mother implies it was her first job after the sightseeing and instructional jobs and the general comments about the outfit she was working for do strongly suggest they have a poor attitude to safety and weather limits.
So sorry I can't get an affidavit for you........
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Keep it simple guys.....one does not have to be inside cloud or fog to encounter the need to control the helicopter by reference to the Instruments.....and it happens very quickly at night over unlit terrain.
Coming from an instructional and tour background....just how much Single Pilot Instrument flight in Actual Instrument flying conditions did this pilot have? How much real IMC flight had she had recently?
We have to remember the US EMS Industry and the US FAA are quite happy if you are "legally" current....no matter that you cannot possibly be proficient and happen to be flying an a helicopter with no stabilization or autopilot at night over dark terrain.....under VFR.
That is a pretty tall order for any Pilot no matter how experienced and well trained.
To be fair....we do. not know if CFIT is the primary cause of this tragedy....but the circumstances sure lend itself to that being the case.
I once flew for a Single Pilot IFR Program where every six months we got an hour or so of Hood Time....immediately followed by an Instrument Check Ride. Upon passing that ride...we were Current and Proficient by Company and FAA Rules.
We were encouraged to do Approaches upon returning to the airfield where we fueled at the end of the EMS flight....but we all know doing Instrument Approaches in the clear blue without restricting your view of the outside is of not much use in maintaining the real skills that need turning up.
Mind you that was in a Sperry equipped Bell 412 that would do a pretty good job of flying itself while you got occupied with the rest of the tasks.
Coming from an instructional and tour background....just how much Single Pilot Instrument flight in Actual Instrument flying conditions did this pilot have? How much real IMC flight had she had recently?
We have to remember the US EMS Industry and the US FAA are quite happy if you are "legally" current....no matter that you cannot possibly be proficient and happen to be flying an a helicopter with no stabilization or autopilot at night over dark terrain.....under VFR.
That is a pretty tall order for any Pilot no matter how experienced and well trained.
To be fair....we do. not know if CFIT is the primary cause of this tragedy....but the circumstances sure lend itself to that being the case.
I once flew for a Single Pilot IFR Program where every six months we got an hour or so of Hood Time....immediately followed by an Instrument Check Ride. Upon passing that ride...we were Current and Proficient by Company and FAA Rules.
We were encouraged to do Approaches upon returning to the airfield where we fueled at the end of the EMS flight....but we all know doing Instrument Approaches in the clear blue without restricting your view of the outside is of not much use in maintaining the real skills that need turning up.
Mind you that was in a Sperry equipped Bell 412 that would do a pretty good job of flying itself while you got occupied with the rest of the tasks.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
Coming from an instructional and tour background....just how much Single Pilot Instrument flight in Actual Instrument flying conditions did this pilot have? How much real IMC flight had she had recently?
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 917
Likes: 11
From: Tax-land.
Keep it simple guys.....one does not have to be inside cloud or fog to encounter the need to control the helicopter by reference to the Instruments.....and it happens very quickly at night over unlit terrain.
Coming from an instructional and tour background....just how much Single Pilot Instrument flight in Actual Instrument flying conditions did this pilot have? How much real IMC flight had she had recently?
We have to remember the US EMS Industry and the US FAA are quite happy if you are "legally" current....no matter that you cannot possibly be proficient and happen to be flying an a helicopter with no stabilization or autopilot at night over dark terrain.....under VFR.
That is a pretty tall order for any Pilot no matter how experienced and well trained.
To be fair....we do. not know if CFIT is the primary cause of this tragedy....but the circumstances sure lend itself to that being the case.
I once flew for a Single Pilot IFR Program where every six months we got an hour or so of Hood Time....immediately followed by an Instrument Check Ride. Upon passing that ride...we were Current and Proficient by Company and FAA Rules.
We were encouraged to do Approaches upon returning to the airfield where we fueled at the end of the EMS flight....but we all know doing Instrument Approaches in the clear blue without restricting your view of the outside is of not much use in maintaining the real skills that need turning up.
Mind you that was in a Sperry equipped Bell 412 that would do a pretty good job of flying itself while you got occupied with the rest of the tasks.
Coming from an instructional and tour background....just how much Single Pilot Instrument flight in Actual Instrument flying conditions did this pilot have? How much real IMC flight had she had recently?
We have to remember the US EMS Industry and the US FAA are quite happy if you are "legally" current....no matter that you cannot possibly be proficient and happen to be flying an a helicopter with no stabilization or autopilot at night over dark terrain.....under VFR.
That is a pretty tall order for any Pilot no matter how experienced and well trained.
To be fair....we do. not know if CFIT is the primary cause of this tragedy....but the circumstances sure lend itself to that being the case.
I once flew for a Single Pilot IFR Program where every six months we got an hour or so of Hood Time....immediately followed by an Instrument Check Ride. Upon passing that ride...we were Current and Proficient by Company and FAA Rules.
We were encouraged to do Approaches upon returning to the airfield where we fueled at the end of the EMS flight....but we all know doing Instrument Approaches in the clear blue without restricting your view of the outside is of not much use in maintaining the real skills that need turning up.
Mind you that was in a Sperry equipped Bell 412 that would do a pretty good job of flying itself while you got occupied with the rest of the tasks.
And night time was a good 30% of total.
You are however correct on the whole post.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 71
Likes: 1
From: Canada
If she had NVG's, she probably wouldn't crash because one the big advantage is, you see the weather
So, if there is a shower, you see it, you see the size, the intensity. It is easy in this case to go around and avoid it.
If you don't have them, well you only know when you are in and it is to late.
Now, if you try to scud in low weather with NVG's with snow showers, it is the perfect tool to get disoriented.
So, if there is a shower, you see it, you see the size, the intensity. It is easy in this case to go around and avoid it.
If you don't have them, well you only know when you are in and it is to late.
Now, if you try to scud in low weather with NVG's with snow showers, it is the perfect tool to get disoriented.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 226
Likes: 25
From: Arizona
I am not on the accident board, I can't give you an absolute answer. The question was the percentage of HEMS are using NVG's. I don't know of any that are not, that's the best I can do. Whether this girl had them mounted and down would require forensics at the accident site.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Shawn.....under the FAA Rules....Part 135 Ops require surface light reference.....but then we also know that Rule is ignored nightly by far too many Operators.
What the rules are for NVG's and surface light reference....I am not knowing.
In some parts of the United States it can be along way between farm houses, ranch houses, and automobiles at night.....then throw in steep hills and mountains....a bit of haze....and there is lots of DARK.
What the rules are for NVG's and surface light reference....I am not knowing.
In some parts of the United States it can be along way between farm houses, ranch houses, and automobiles at night.....then throw in steep hills and mountains....a bit of haze....and there is lots of DARK.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
If she had NVG's, she probably wouldn't crash because one the big advantage is, you see the weather
So, if there is a shower, you see it, you see the size, the intensity. It is easy in this case to go around and avoid it.
So, if there is a shower, you see it, you see the size, the intensity. It is easy in this case to go around and avoid it.
Looking at the map....the crash site is in the middle of a very dark area
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 71
Likes: 1
From: Canada
"Only if there is some ambient light. NVGs take in ambient light and magnify it. An overcast night, no moon, no streetlights/houselights to reflect off the clouds equals no light, so nothing too magnify, so you can see nothing"
What is that ???
We see well at night every night. The intensity and clarity are different if it is cover or clear sky, but we still see all around us with NVG's.
There is no problem to fly with cover sky, it is just not so bright.
What is that ???
We see well at night every night. The intensity and clarity are different if it is cover or clear sky, but we still see all around us with NVG's.
There is no problem to fly with cover sky, it is just not so bright.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Omnipresent
One of the points raised re hours and actual experience strikes a chord. It seems common in US EMS that you need lots of hours (ca. 2000) but nobody cares to examine what quality of hours. So as in this scenario the pilot had very repetitive types of
day VFR experience, likely much of it on piston singles. But because the total number was big enough then it’s all ok. Yet I see on another form of social media military medevac experienced twin engine IFR pilots with 1000 hours of such unable to get a job. Especially in EMS where 2000 seems
to be required. So a box was ticked but actual experience totally inappropriate for the role etc. Again FAA not doing their job. Where’s the oversight....?
Not the company’s first rodeo either with 407: https://www.swoknews.com/local/air-scare
day VFR experience, likely much of it on piston singles. But because the total number was big enough then it’s all ok. Yet I see on another form of social media military medevac experienced twin engine IFR pilots with 1000 hours of such unable to get a job. Especially in EMS where 2000 seems
to be required. So a box was ticked but actual experience totally inappropriate for the role etc. Again FAA not doing their job. Where’s the oversight....?
Not the company’s first rodeo either with 407: https://www.swoknews.com/local/air-scare
Last edited by Hedski; 7th February 2019 at 23:04.