Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

US HEMS Accident

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

US HEMS Accident

Old 31st Jan 2019, 14:53
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Europe
Age: 55
Posts: 673
.
Medflight statment :

"As it relates to MedFlight, we received a request to transport a patient from the Holzer-Meigs Emergency Room in Pomeroy at 6:00 a.m. on Tuesday, Jan. 29. The assigned team’s pilot, working with the Operational Control Center at Metro Aviation, Inc., our aviation operator, determined that weather conditions at the time of request were below our program’s weather minimums. Each helicopter ambulance service has their own protocols for making decisions about whether it is appropriate to fly under given conditions."

http://www.verticalmag.com/press-rel...-flight-crash/
.
HeliHenri is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 17:38
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CHL need a wall TEXAS
Posts: 2
Why sue??? They didn't make the call to go
112rm is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 17:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CHL need a wall TEXAS
Posts: 2
Angry

There needs to be serious education among the medical community on what it means when a provider turns a flight down due to WX. Sadly, the strive for the all mighty $$$$$ plays a huge factor into these decisions the crews make. based on the age of the pilot she wasn't in the industry several years ago 2004- 2008/09 when everyone was working to stop this type of behavior/risk taking.. Sad so Sad Please let us all do a better job of mentoring young pilots. we are NOT inventing new accidents.. just repeating....and repeating...

can i get an Amen!! sorry preachy I know
112rm is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:15
  #24 (permalink)  
LRP
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
“State troopers’ special response team and aviation unit began searching for the wreckage and finally located it around 10:16 a.m., reportedly pinging one of the crew members’ cellphones.”

3 hours to find the wreckage.
No tracking?


Probably wouldn’t have affected the outcome of those onboard had the site been located earlier...

mjb
It was being tracked, when the track stopped they notified the local SAR. The tracking is similar to AFF that USFS uses, you get the last location return, but just like the last radar track, it may not get you close enough to the wreckage in wooded or rugged terrain. BTDT.
LRP is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:20
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 657
No matter what ends up being the actual cause of the accident, the very legitimate question will have to be asked: Why did she accept that flight when *two* other agencies turned it down? Being that close to sunrise, did she optimistically believe that things would get better as it got lighter out? Of course we have no way of knowing what she was thinking. But let us admit that launching at that time was ill-advised. Upon hearing that two other operators had already turned the flight down, most of us old-timers would've said, "Good enough for me!" and then taken off our white knight armor and gone back to sleep.

But we have to understand that women pilots are subject to some amount of increased pressure than their male counterparts. Aviation is a man-dominated industry to be sure and so some women are just going to feel - rightly or wrongly - as though they're infringing in our territory. Could this lead to a bit of, "I'll show 'em! I'll show 'em that I'm just as good as they are." Who knows. But I wouldn't be surprised if she felt some self-imposed pressure to launch, perhaps ignoring that tiny voice in her head saying not to.

We can dissect accidents six ways from Sunday. We can figure out all of the forensic details...the how and the when. But we can never know a pilot's thought process. When I think about some of the really close-calls I've had in my career, if any one of them had turned into a fatal, the investigators would've been scratching their heads wondering what the hell I was thinking and why I put myself,my passengers and the ship in that position? It is only through God's good fortune that they never had to ask.

We wouldn't be worth a crap as pilots if we didn't think that we could safely complete each flight, right? But how we convince ourselves of that is often complicated and murky and not easily understood.
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 20:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
If I ever learned of a "Turn Down" by another Operator I almost invariably said "No!".

I preferred to start from the default position of "No" then let the weather, etc.....argue me into saying "Yes".

The decision is easy when it is clear cut....good weather or bad weather....it is the in-between stuff that will kill you.

I will bet there were significant presence of snow showers in the area with some reporting sites showing marginal weather.



SASless is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 22:40
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tax-land.
Posts: 873
Ha! We had several episodes of bad weather at destination and OUR OWN dispatcher was toning every helicopter in the operation to get a GO response.
tottigol is offline  
Old 1st Feb 2019, 00:06
  #28 (permalink)  
LRP
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
No matter what ends up being the actual cause of the accident, the very legitimate question will have to be asked: Why did she accept that flight when *two* other agencies turned it down? Being that close to sunrise, did she optimistically believe that things would get better as it got lighter out? Of course we have no way of knowing what she was thinking. But let us admit that launching at that time was ill-advised. Upon hearing that two other operators had already turned the flight down, most of us old-timers would've said, "Good enough for me!" and then taken off our white knight armor and gone back to sleep.

But we have to understand that women pilots are subject to some amount of increased pressure than their male counterparts. Aviation is a man-dominated industry to be sure and so some women are just going to feel - rightly or wrongly - as though they're infringing in our territory. Could this lead to a bit of, "I'll show 'em! I'll show 'em that I'm just as good as they are." Who knows. But I wouldn't be surprised if she felt some self-imposed pressure to launch, perhaps ignoring that tiny voice in her head saying not to.

We can dissect accidents six ways from Sunday. We can figure out all of the forensic details...the how and the when. But we can never know a pilot's thought process. When I think about some of the really close-calls I've had in my career, if any one of them had turned into a fatal, the investigators would've been scratching their heads wondering what the hell I was thinking and why I put myself,my passengers and the ship in that position? It is only through God's good fortune that they never had to ask.

We wouldn't be worth a crap as pilots if we didn't think that we could safely complete each flight, right? But how we convince ourselves of that is often complicated and murky and not easily understood.
She may not have known anyone turned the flight down. The requester is supposed to inform them if they've been turned down, many times when they are shopping they leave that bit out.
LRP is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 18:01
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tax-land.
Posts: 873
Originally Posted by LRP View Post
She may not have known anyone turned the flight down. The requester is supposed to inform them if they've been turned down, many times when they are shopping they leave that bit out.
Why couln't she check the WX herself?
tottigol is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 19:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Africa
Posts: 320
Originally Posted by LRP View Post
It was being tracked, when the track stopped they notified the local SAR. The tracking is similar to AFF that USFS uses, you get the last location return, but just like the last radar track, it may not get you close enough to the wreckage in wooded or rugged terrain. BTDT.
LPR, do you know the tracking interval?
Hot and Hi is online now  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 21:35
  #31 (permalink)  
LRP
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by Hot and Hi View Post
LPR, do you know the tracking interval?
I do not. But from watching it, the little acft symbol is very "jumpy". If I had to guess I would say around a minute.
LRP is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 23:21
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Out there
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by LRP View Post
She may not have known anyone turned the flight down. The requester is supposed to inform them if they've been turned down, many times when they are shopping they leave that bit out.
So are the dispatch calls recorded? Notwithstanding the fact she should have checked and made a weather decision. Snow showers around also, flight in falling snow anyone?
Evil Twin is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 03:29
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 55
If the flight was turned down by MedFlight, why their dispatch try to get somebody else on the same flight???
This attitude is totally wrong but typical from the US system.
Snow showers at night with a Bell 407 is not a good idea, if MedFlight had those information's, she also had it, why go in this case??
To prove what??
Again and again, same situation, same conditions, same result......
Arcal76 is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 09:41
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: uk
Posts: 28
Could the reason she accepted the flight was because of her lack of experience? I am not talking about her flying hours or instructional....but many guys and girls think that flying a helicopter around the sunny grand canyon, or sight seeing trips in Florida is the same as a job at night up north in foul weather conditions? (or even in the day for that matter)?
Lots of pilots are of the assumption that just because they have their licence and lots of hours they can fly anywhere and do anything? Maybe management should ask the questions in an interview to find out what "real" experience they have ,or think twice when reading one's Resume' before hiring?
B
Brutal is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 11:27
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
As the situation stands currently....the Pilot accepted the flight and the aircraft crashed....killing all who were aboard.

It was dark, sparsely populated wooded terrain the aircraft was flying over.

The weather conditions appear to be an issue.

The Investigation will work to determine the most probable cause....be it mechanical or other.

One thing is for sure.....Management will not be held accountable by the FAA or NTSB.

It might very well be taken to task in some civil action....but so will the Pilot.

This as every such tragedy should result in "Lessons Learned" and probably shall.

Also, with absolute certainty we shall read yet another such Accident Report for exactly the same causes set forth in the coming Report.

EMS Helicopter Pilots must not be able to read and comprehend the written word based upon that.

Which makes this tragedy all the worse......daylight was about an hour away.....and we know how a simple factor such as flying in darkness affects the likelihood of a crash can be so pronounced.

Until the EMS Crews all accept they are not in the Life Saving business and are just providing safe, reliable, medical transportation by Helicopter....will the safety stats significantly improve.

Management has a major role to play in achieving that improvement.

Rather than critiquing flights that end in tragedy....perhaps the Industry should critique all of the flights that do not end in tragedy to ensure all of the Industry Best Practices are maintained.

The Crews themselves should be honest when they do their post flight critiques and feel free to accurately report up the chain of command the narrow misses that occurred.

But....I know with absolute certainty that is not something the industry will support.

With the advent of cheap, bare bones, community based EMS operations that must fly in order to pay the Bills.....the pressure is too fly....not reject flights.

Fancy words on slick advertising handouts....does not equate to reality far too often and we all know it.
SASless is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 13:25
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tax-land.
Posts: 873
Absolutely correct SAS, I could have said the same although with added cursing and swearing.
However there IS a handout with names and phone numbers....

Last edited by tottigol; 4th Feb 2019 at 13:26. Reason: added text
tottigol is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 13:34
  #37 (permalink)  
"Just a pilot"
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jefferson GA USA
Age: 70
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
As the situation stands currently....the Pilot accepted the flight and the aircraft crashed....killing all who were aboard.

It was dark, sparsely populated wooded terrain the aircraft was flying over.

The weather conditions appear to be an issue.

The Investigation will work to determine the most probable cause....be it mechanical or other.

One thing is for sure.....Management will not be held accountable by the FAA or NTSB.

It might very well be taken to task in some civil action....but so will the Pilot.

This as every such tragedy should result in "Lessons Learned" and probably shall.

Also, with absolute certainty we shall read yet another such Accident Report for exactly the same causes set forth in the coming Report.

EMS Helicopter Pilots must not be able to read and comprehend the written word based upon that.

Which makes this tragedy all the worse......daylight was about an hour away.....and we know how a simple factor such as flying in darkness affects the likelihood of a crash can be so pronounced.

Until the EMS Crews all accept they are not in the Life Saving business and are just providing safe, reliable, medical transportation by Helicopter....will the safety stats significantly improve.

Management has a major role to play in achieving that improvement.

Rather than critiquing flights that end in tragedy....perhaps the Industry should critique all of the flights that do not end in tragedy to ensure all of the Industry Best Practices are maintained.

The Crews themselves should be honest when they do their post flight critiques and feel free to accurately report up the chain of command the narrow misses that occurred.

But....I know with absolute certainty that is not something the industry will support.

With the advent of cheap, bare bones, community based EMS operations that must fly in order to pay the Bills.....the pressure is too fly....not reject flights.

Fancy words on slick advertising handouts....does not equate to reality far too often and we all know it.
Why aren't pilots aborting, diverting or landing when issues are encountered????
Devil 49 is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 16:24
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Africa
Posts: 320
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Rather than critiquing flights that end in tragedy....perhaps the Industry should critique all of the flights that do not end in tragedy to ensure all of the Industry Best Practices are maintained.
Very good point! The same risky behaviour doesn't become acceptable just because you got a away with it this time.
Hot and Hi is online now  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 17:45
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
Looking at the map....the crash site is in the middle of a very dark area.....anyone have the weather reports for the time for one. hour before to one hour after the crash?
SASless is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 20:24
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Looking at the map....the crash site is in the middle of a very dark area.....anyone have the weather reports for the time for one. hour before to one hour after the crash?
Archived Wx and Archived Wx

Last edited by JimEli; 4th Feb 2019 at 20:26. Reason: new link
JimEli is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.