Mont Blanc helicopter rescue
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
Again, there is nothing unsafe about the ‘nose-in’ evolution which has been used for many, many years. crab@ I suspect you may have overlooked the backpacks which were part of the load taken on board prior to the double lift, but that would have added at least another hoist cycle to the mix. But it didn’t because an option to winching was used which was/is well practiced and safe. Those who query the OEI capability should be aware that the 117/145 has oodles of power and is unlikely to have been operated outside such requirements.
Another view from a similar op back 5-6 years ago, made more demanding by use of the left door. Same opinion from me about transitioning with the winch weight still outside, though!
Another view from a similar op back 5-6 years ago, made more demanding by use of the left door. Same opinion from me about transitioning with the winch weight still outside, though!
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Downeast
Memory serves me that the Austrian Police (the Austria without Kangaroo's) pioneered high mountain rescues using fixed line transfers......so I guess there are multiple right answers to the same problem.
They do it using mirrors and not long line style bubble windows too I am thinking.
They do it using mirrors and not long line style bubble windows too I am thinking.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,556
Likes: 56
From: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
My understanding is that these guys have a very detailed understanding of the geometry at the front of this type for exactly this kind of op.
Moving before winching is complete? Normal in their patch. They are normally working at altitude and seem to be searching for translational lift at every opportunity. Have a look at some of their online videos and you'll see they are routinely winching out on approach and doing a very quick insertion as though it were a longline. Similar but in reverse during recoveries.
It's not what is normally done in some other territories but it's not the same conditions either. I've met a few of these guys and listened to their presentations about specific rescues. They present as very professional and they have a niche way of working for the conditions they encounter on their patch.
Moving before winching is complete? Normal in their patch. They are normally working at altitude and seem to be searching for translational lift at every opportunity. Have a look at some of their online videos and you'll see they are routinely winching out on approach and doing a very quick insertion as though it were a longline. Similar but in reverse during recoveries.
It's not what is normally done in some other territories but it's not the same conditions either. I've met a few of these guys and listened to their presentations about specific rescues. They present as very professional and they have a niche way of working for the conditions they encounter on their patch.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Another way to look at it....what is their accident rate as compared to other similar operations?
As long as they have found a way that works for them...and they retain an admirable safety record....then they deserve respect.
That they do different sure doesn't make them wrong.
As long as they have found a way that works for them...and they retain an admirable safety record....then they deserve respect.
That they do different sure doesn't make them wrong.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: EGDC
John, no I hadn't missed the backpacks but a First Response Bag doesn't weigh enough to need an extra lift unless you have a very weight limited hoist - the medics are very unlikely to deploy on a steep, snowy slope with a heavy mass on their backs - that is asking for a slip down the hill.
No-one (apart from journos) has said that the nose-in technique is inherently unsafe but it does carry additional risk compared to winching or a side-on skid landing. Antone who has flown mountain rescues will have had to place the aircraft in a less than ideal position where a malfunction could have serious implications but sometimes it is absolutely required to save lives - in this case it wasn't.
Thoroughly agree that the space-walk on the winch in was completely unnecessary.
No-one (apart from journos) has said that the nose-in technique is inherently unsafe but it does carry additional risk compared to winching or a side-on skid landing. Antone who has flown mountain rescues will have had to place the aircraft in a less than ideal position where a malfunction could have serious implications but sometimes it is absolutely required to save lives - in this case it wasn't.
Thoroughly agree that the space-walk on the winch in was completely unnecessary.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Gold Coast, Australia
The geometry of the skids/nose touching the slope is such that the blade tips will not impact on the upslope as long as it is the same slope angle or less. A competent and capable pilot should have no problem judging the slope and thus carrying out the evolution.
crab@, the narrow skid set on the 117/145 is such that a side-on skid landing is less safe as the slope angle has to be less to ensure tip clearance, plus there is no other fuselage point to give an assurance in the same manner as the skid tips/nose touching as shown in the videos.
crab@, the narrow skid set on the 117/145 is such that a side-on skid landing is less safe as the slope angle has to be less to ensure tip clearance, plus there is no other fuselage point to give an assurance in the same manner as the skid tips/nose touching as shown in the videos.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 218
Likes: 52
From: Europe
Had a chance to talk to those guys and visited Chamonix base recently- they have qute a lot of training and a lot of actual practice, so definitelly proficient in what they do. Agree that nose-in brings quite some risk and if winch is available, might look questionable. But there were other factors affecting risk assesment (weather in particular) and they decided on the best course of action under circumstances.
I was also against such practices, as winch is available, am aware of many incidents/accidents occuring during such attempts, but a well trained/proficient crew can do it quite safely.
Do not underestimate exposure time. Crab, am aware of your winching procedures a little (tried it with 202. Squadron - great time!), but we decided to do it differently as hovering near rocks for ages winching in and out 30 metres of cable or more makes seconds extending to near eternity. And there is a time limit for hovering in RFM for some types.
"Spacewalking" might looks dangerous but our rescuers are aware that it does not really matter if you fall 30 or 300 metres, so we also winch in and out away from rocks as much as possible, thus exposing everybody for minimum time necessary - also falling rocks are often an issue to think of. (those triggered by helicopter and those that might hit us from above)
I was also against such practices, as winch is available, am aware of many incidents/accidents occuring during such attempts, but a well trained/proficient crew can do it quite safely.
Do not underestimate exposure time. Crab, am aware of your winching procedures a little (tried it with 202. Squadron - great time!), but we decided to do it differently as hovering near rocks for ages winching in and out 30 metres of cable or more makes seconds extending to near eternity. And there is a time limit for hovering in RFM for some types.
"Spacewalking" might looks dangerous but our rescuers are aware that it does not really matter if you fall 30 or 300 metres, so we also winch in and out away from rocks as much as possible, thus exposing everybody for minimum time necessary - also falling rocks are often an issue to think of. (those triggered by helicopter and those that might hit us from above)
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
John - I take your point about nose-in versus lateral but he did something in between for the drop off - just the front of the right skid on the snow - again well flown but if nose in is better, why didn't he do that then?
Hoistop - don't confuse what we did on UK SAR with this operation - we had to winch 95% of the time since a nose-in landing wasn't an option and the larger disc and downwash of the Sea King meant we had to winch higher than you would in a smaller helo.
As for the falling - we tried whenever possible to keep the winchman and casualty as low as possible to the ground - it couldn't always be achieved but I would still rather fall 5 m than 50 m or 500 m. On a snowy slope at low height you at least have a chance of stopping yourself sliding whereas from a greater height you are probably going all the way to the bottom.
Hoistop - don't confuse what we did on UK SAR with this operation - we had to winch 95% of the time since a nose-in landing wasn't an option and the larger disc and downwash of the Sea King meant we had to winch higher than you would in a smaller helo.
As for the falling - we tried whenever possible to keep the winchman and casualty as low as possible to the ground - it couldn't always be achieved but I would still rather fall 5 m than 50 m or 500 m. On a snowy slope at low height you at least have a chance of stopping yourself sliding whereas from a greater height you are probably going all the way to the bottom.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,992
Likes: 511
From: UK
Crab - Everything EXCEPT in Cornwall ... that's just my origin! and the 'Jack' is from having operated in all crew positions except gunner and having been a 'Master' 
The concomitance of the "...all trades" phrase is noted - and accepted!
The concomitance of the "...all trades" phrase is noted - and accepted!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,174
Likes: 7
From: UK
Northern Norway, late Seventies.
British Army lands his Scout on the snow and shuts it down to talk to various personnel. Whilst engrossed in this Scout slides down the hill into a snowbank.
Lots of radio traffic and OC Scouts fly out. He lands his Scout on the snow, shuts down and commences to bollock said pilot.
Scout slides down the hill into the first Scout.
British Army lands his Scout on the snow and shuts it down to talk to various personnel. Whilst engrossed in this Scout slides down the hill into a snowbank.
Lots of radio traffic and OC Scouts fly out. He lands his Scout on the snow, shuts down and commences to bollock said pilot.
Scout slides down the hill into the first Scout.
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Inverness-shire
My understanding is that these guys have a very detailed understanding of the geometry at the front of this type for exactly this kind of op.
Moving before winching is complete? Normal in their patch. They are normally working at altitude and seem to be searching for translational lift at every opportunity. Have a look at some of their online videos and you'll see they are routinely winching out on approach and doing a very quick insertion as though it were a longline. Similar but in reverse during recoveries.
It's not what is normally done in some other territories but it's not the same conditions either. I've met a few of these guys and listened to their presentations about specific rescues. They present as very professional and they have a niche way of working for the conditions they encounter on their patch.
Moving before winching is complete? Normal in their patch. They are normally working at altitude and seem to be searching for translational lift at every opportunity. Have a look at some of their online videos and you'll see they are routinely winching out on approach and doing a very quick insertion as though it were a longline. Similar but in reverse during recoveries.
It's not what is normally done in some other territories but it's not the same conditions either. I've met a few of these guys and listened to their presentations about specific rescues. They present as very professional and they have a niche way of working for the conditions they encounter on their patch.
Can't comment on the relative advantages of winching vs setting down skid light, but would make the observation that this is common in Chamonix at least.
What I do find interesting is the amount of Social Media coverage this has received. Of course it's comes purely down to outcome as to where this is perceived as positive or negative. Sadly, it would probably go viral in either case(!)...
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,886
Likes: 97
From: U.S.A.
This is an excellent time to consult the Flight Reference Cards under "Actions on being a tool".
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
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From: Downeast
Two.....you are being a very naughty boy!
High Test Instant Columbian Coffee through one's nostrils is a quick way to wake up!
I think I might just start snorting the dry crystals and see how that works!
High Test Instant Columbian Coffee through one's nostrils is a quick way to wake up!
I think I might just start snorting the dry crystals and see how that works!
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 208
Likes: 6
From: North of 60. South of 42.
