Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 23rd Feb 2021, 09:07
  #1181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 254
Received 6 Likes on 5 Posts
agree - very embarrassing - not to mention other (more straight-forward?) reports which appear to be taking an inordinate amount of time to be published (S-92). Kind of begs the question "is our renowned AAIB still truly independent"?
JulieAndrews is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2021, 10:30
  #1182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lost again...
Posts: 919
Received 149 Likes on 59 Posts
Originally Posted by JulieAndrews
agree - very embarrassing - not to mention other (more straight-forward?) reports which appear to be taking an inordinate amount of time to be published (S-92). Kind of begs the question "is our renowned AAIB still truly independent"?
Which S-92 are you referring to? If it's the Irish SAR machine (report significantly delayed) then I would remind you that that accident is being investigated by the Irish AAIU, not UK AAIB.
OvertHawk is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2021, 15:26
  #1183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,474
Received 29 Likes on 21 Posts
Originally Posted by skridlov
It's been a few years since I had the temerity to post on PPRUNE but something I just read caused a double-take:
"The current situation is that the actuator has been modified by replacing the right hand thread at the input end of the control shaft with a left hand thread.
This removes the repetetive inspection on the nut for loss of torque."
I used to operate a couple of 1940s ex-US Army 6x6 Studebakers. All the wheel nuts on the L/H side wheels were left-hand thread. That's 1940s: wheels: on a truck...
These days I work on vintage watches, dating back to WW1 in some cases. Almost without exception the crown-wheels, which rotate counter-clockwise, have left-hand threads. There are some esoteric exceptions, but...
It boggles my easily boggled ageing mind to think that this strategy could have been ignored on a HELICOPTER! Blimey.

That was a popular solution on truck wheels and also a few vans and high performance cars in the 1960s. This method has died out now that truck manufacturers have found out how to do proper fastener design, tighten them properly, and use reliable tightening methods. Truck wheels are generally no longer user serviceable because of the high torques and specialist tools.

Specialist fastener design is troublesome whenever the format of the threaded components prevent the male threaded element taking the role of a spring. Every standard bolt is designed to act as a very stiff spring and effective reliable tightening requires that spring to be taken to near its limit. If the format of the threaded components, or the low compressive strength of the components being retained by the threaded components, prevents taking the spring to its limit then there is a serious problem. This serious problem is extremely common, even in automotive and aviation sectors where one might think things are all sorted! This explains all the split pins, locking wire, adhesives, and so on that we are familiar with in those industries. It also explains why in modern designs we can find fasteners abandoned and they just glue it if they can!

Aviation also has the Titanium problem. This is because Ti behaviour makes it probably the worst material for threaded fasteners that is in regular use. (S-92 oil housing, Cougar 91!!!)
jimf671 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 10:53
  #1184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Find it incredible that the AAIB still haven't published this report. What is going on, or not ?!
Echo Romeo is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2021, 01:19
  #1185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Manitoba Canada
Age: 72
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The mind of a bureaucrat is different than ours.
The bureaucrat will never have a component failure while sitting at his desk investigating component failures in the world of aviation. Unless his coffee machine breaks down or something.

That is why I always say pprune discussions like this serve a useful function .... within days we will speculate on all the possibilities and it eventually gets narrowed down to just a few ..... pilots and mechanics will pay attention and maybe even check their own machines.

In the case of the Leicester crash we pretty well know what happened ... we just dont know where the finger points as to the cause .... was it people ... metal ... or design .... that is the tedious job of the investigators to sort out.

Same as the Cougar S-92 that went down in Newfoundland ..... within a few hours this forum discussion had pretty much narrowed it down to the titanium stud failure on the MTX oil filter ..... 3 years later investigators confirmed it.

For that reason I do not agree with folks who tell us not to speculate , but tell us to wait years for the official report .

Such folks have the mindset of a bureaucrat.
Arnie Madsen is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2021, 17:22
  #1186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/n...r-part-6118515
GrayHorizonsHeli is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2022, 15:22
  #1187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: tomorrowland
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Any news about the final report of this accident?
gmrwiz is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2022, 16:08
  #1188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The South
Age: 58
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...sary-statement
The AAIB has now concluded its investigation into the accident and expects to publish a detailed final report in early 2023.
FloaterNorthWest is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2022, 18:47
  #1189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,961
Received 11 Likes on 5 Posts
That took long enough.
One recommendation should be that vanity flights in to stadiums should be banned. It was lucky that just the crew and passengers died in this incident.

My deepest sympathy goes to the crew who like the incident at Beccles were servants to those in the back.
Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2022, 22:12
  #1190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,381
Received 384 Likes on 221 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
That took long enough.
One recommendation should be that vanity flights in to stadiums should be banned. It was lucky that just the crew and passengers died in this incident.

My deepest sympathy goes to the crew who like the incident at Beccles were servants to those in the back.
When you say Beccles I assume you mean the AW139 accident with Lord Ballyedmond? I fail to see the connection. It is clear the AW169 accident was due to a mechanical fault and the outcome exacerbated by an unfortunate impact with a small wall (that ruptured the fuel tanks). There is no suggestion of pressure on the crew or crew competence, unlike the 139 accident. So whatís your point?
212man is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2022, 02:42
  #1191 (permalink)  
gsa
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wensleydale.
Posts: 129
Received 9 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by 212man
When you say Beccles I assume you mean the AW139 accident with Lord Ballyedmond? I fail to see the connection. It is clear the AW169 accident was due to a mechanical fault and the outcome exacerbated by an unfortunate impact with a small wall (that ruptured the fuel tanks). There is no suggestion of pressure on the crew or crew competence, unlike the 139 accident. So whatís your point?

i think that he hasnít worked out yet the difference between saying no and a mechanical failure, Captaincy has the priority no matter who the talking and paying bagage Is.
gsa is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2022, 08:55
  #1192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Africa
Posts: 536
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Devil

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
That took long enough.
One recommendation should be that vanity flights in to stadiums should be banned. It was lucky that just the crew and passengers died in this incident.

My deepest sympathy goes to the crew who like the incident at Beccles were servants to those in the back.
There seem to be a number of people on this network who feel that flying is an inherently bad and asocial activity. And that it should be restricted to the pursuit of saving the lives of (worthy) people, or the pursuit of taking the lives of the enemy.

Not surprisingly, many of those who carry this grudge have themselves indulged in the joy of flying their entire career using no expenses spared government-funded hardware, were trained to the highest standards by tax payers money and were exempted from many of the inconvenient regulations that govern the world of civilian flight.

I think it's a bit rich.
Hot and Hi is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2022, 11:17
  #1193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 254
Received 6 Likes on 5 Posts
'Vanity Flight' my ar5e. Football pitch-sized HLS for a Perf A departure in a highly capable machine, get a grip. Or are you suggesting that helicopters should only be used on the understanding that a new machine will suffer from a mechanical/servicing HF failure at any time? I admit that I always assume something will go wrong just to combat possible 'startle effect' and to be prepared but your mentality means choppers should only land and depart using clear areas - which kind of negates the whole point of a helicopter......#darkages
JulieAndrews is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 29th Oct 2022, 19:15
  #1194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,961
Received 11 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by JulieAndrews
'Vanity Flight' my ar5e. Football pitch-sized HLS for a Perf A departure in a highly capable machine, get a grip. Or are you suggesting that helicopters should only be used on the understanding that a new machine will suffer from a mechanical/servicing HF failure at any time? I admit that I always assume something will go wrong just to combat possible 'startle effect' and to be prepared but your mentality means choppers should only land and depart using clear areas - which kind of negates the whole point of a helicopter......#darkages
In two words risk assessment.

I spend a lot of my time in Asia where the owners of King Power have vast commercial monopolies.

The football match prior to the accident was to highlight their chief executive and promote their brand.They arrived near the stadium at the training ground 1.5 miles away but chose to leave from the stadium after the match as this departure was being screened live in Thailand.

The risk although slight of such a mishap is not worth publicity gained by such a stunt.Demands from very wealthy people often lead to the death of pilots put under pressure by their employers.

In this case it went wrong as did this accident at Beccles in Norfolk.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rd-ballyedmond

Last edited by Mike Flynn; 29th Oct 2022 at 19:33.
Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2022, 20:00
  #1195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,319
Received 593 Likes on 249 Posts
Stunt?

Did any authority suggest there was a violation of any Rule or Regulation?
SASless is online now  
Old 29th Oct 2022, 20:49
  #1196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,849
Received 84 Likes on 35 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
In two words risk assessment.
The risk although slight of such a mishap is not worth publicity gained by such a stunt.Demands from very wealthy people often lead to the death of pilots put under pressure by their employers.
The risk associated with that departure was no higher than a departure from any other site that required that type of departure profile. Given the cause of the accident, it would have happened on the next flight anyway, and who can say what the outcome would have been.
MightyGem is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2022, 21:06
  #1197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 7 Posts
You simply cannot compare this accident to the Norfolk one. This was mechanical failure, the other was pilot error/CFIT of a perfectly serviceable helicopter.
Yes, I agree, if this helicopter took off from a 2km runway and the bearing gave up soon after lifting, then maybe just maybe the outcome may have been different (but not vastly). If the bearing gave up on approach to a 2km runway it could have ended up in someone's front room.
We mitigate against risk as much as possible every time we fly, but if we continually fly a helicopter like a plane, we may as well get a plane.
If you want to mitigate risk to zero, then lock the hangar doors, eat Ryvita and drink tomato juice. 10 years later write a 1 page book on how interesting your life is!
jeepys is offline  
The following 4 users liked this post by jeepys:
Old 29th Oct 2022, 22:59
  #1198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,319
Received 593 Likes on 249 Posts
Mike Flynn,

Perhaps you might provide us a copy of the Risk Assessment Protocol that you are using to predicate your evaluation of the Risks for the Takeoff performed that sad day so that we can all have a better understanding of exactly why you have the opinion you do re that event.

It might prove useful to be able to demonstrate the benefit of the Risk Analysis you do for your own operations and perhaps others might consider incorporating yours into their theirs.
SASless is online now  
The following users liked this post:
Old 30th Oct 2022, 09:25
  #1199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: uk
Posts: 75
Received 13 Likes on 5 Posts
Oh c'mon Mike Flynn....I guess you better give up your car as the chances of an accident and someone being killed are 10,000 fold? Was there really a need for you to pop to the shops that night for a bottle of wine, or get that ever so important takeaway, every journey being a risk to someone? If you go out for a walk do you wear a crash helmet incase of falling debris from an airliner? There was nothing risky about that departure.... just bad luck on the crew. I suggest you light up some candles in your house, and take cold showers, so that the boys and girls don't have to risk their lives going to oil/gas/wind platforms/farms in the N.Sea for our energy needs, as this is way more risky than departing a stadium...just look at the terrible loss of life over the last 20 years..

B.
Brutal is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2022, 15:38
  #1200 (permalink)  
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,876
Received 65 Likes on 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
...My deepest sympathy goes to the crew who like the incident at Beccles were servants to those in the back.
If you don't understand the conduct of every flight is entirely down to Captaincy, you probably shouldn't be a Captain.
Two's in is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.