Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Air Ambulance

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Air Ambulance

Old 12th May 2018, 15:12
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 55
Posts: 4
Arobur

A thin skinned Clinician, are You?
Anyway, Here in Norway we have had AirAmbulance since 1932 when Viggo Widerøe started with a floatplane saving life in remote places. The Airforce has always had the SAR capability using the Catalina initaly.
In 1978 Dr Jens Moe helped establish the Norwegian Air Ambulance Foundation, and there is a one page summary on luftambulanse.no that must be mandatory reading for a budding entrepneur like Your self !

This Gang is my heroes as when the sun drops and the storm leads to accidents, off they go on the VFR Night routes low level to pick up the wounded and get them to safety.
Not a place for amateurs , Son.
Its all been tried before, possible the most challenging Heli ops next to logging and Military.

Regards
Cpt B
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 13th May 2018, 15:47
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: unsteady
Posts: 347
Originally Posted by nigelh View Post
That’s actually very funny �� !!!!!
I suggest a Robinson ( without a jet stream ) . Most of your patients will miraculously recover when they see what they will be transported in !!!!! You can see it now ....broken leg , foot pointing backwards ...sees Robber in his Robbie and “ oh don’t worry ... I don’t need a lift . I think it’s only a sprain ��!!!). Job done !
Did you know there is an R44 providing EMS in rural NE Germany since 1995? Obviously not for patient transport, but it's quite an effective tool for getting the doc to the people that desperately need one.
whoknows idont is offline  
Old 13th May 2018, 16:10
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 71
Posts: 1,305
It's not such a crazy idea. When I did the research for the Cornwall AA back in 1986 I found out that the then market-leaders in Germany were rarely transporting patients. Their advantage was that their crew always included a trauma trained doctor and they were hospital based. The doc would invariably have a road ambulance on hand so he cold fix-up the patient and send him/her on their way back to the GH or specialist centre. If you can start an AA operation with a standard fit helicopter delivering the doc and his kit plus maybe a paramedic, it's a much cheaper option and can give you some good data to enable the case to be made for a full HEMS machine.

If we are talking UK then it is essential to work with the local Ambulance Service and receiving hospitals. Attempts were made in those very early days to short-cut the system in Devon, London (and incidentally in Saudi Arabia). For any HEMS system to succeed it must be embraced by the entire health care system.
G.
Geoffersincornwall is offline  
Old 13th May 2018, 17:58
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by Geoffersincornwall View Post
It's not such a crazy idea. When I did the research for the Cornwall AA back in 1986 I found out that the then market-leaders in Germany were rarely transporting patients. Their advantage was that their crew always included a trauma trained doctor and they were hospital based. The doc would invariably have a road ambulance on hand so he cold fix-up the patient and send him/her on their way back to the GH or specialist centre. If you can start an AA operation with a standard fit helicopter delivering the doc and his kit plus maybe a paramedic, it's a much cheaper option and can give you some good data to enable the case to be made for a full HEMS machine.

If we are talking UK then it is essential to work with the local Ambulance Service and receiving hospitals. Attempts were made in those very early days to short-cut the system in Devon, London (and incidentally in Saudi Arabia). For any HEMS system to succeed it must be embraced by the entire health care system.
G.
DELIVERING CLINICAL SKILL TO SCENE
Norwegian air ambulance managers have described how with 12 ambulance bases and 6 SAR bases they can use an ambulance aircraft to longline a paramedic to a casualty in a difficult location. The paramedic then looks after the casualty while the SAR aircraft is still en route and extraction is then by SAR aircraft with winch.

AYRSHIRE
The OP is talking about Ayrshire. Quick check of posting date: not 1st April. Proceed. It would be hard to think of a less appropriate location for such an effort. Helimed 5 is just a few minutes away, Rescue 199 is at Prestwick, there are no extreme local factors pressing for extra cover (remote rural, intense large city), several key politicians (including FM) and health service figures come from Ayrshire and would be all over this if there were a genuine requirement.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 14th May 2018, 12:54
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,666
I think Arobur is an ambulance technicain with ambitions..............bless.
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 14th May 2018, 14:56
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Near the source of insanity
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Geoffersincornwall View Post
If we are talking UK then it is essential to work with the local Ambulance Service and receiving hospitals. ... . For any HEMS system to succeed it must be embraced by the entire health care system.
G.
Good point! Couple years back I've been doing an assessment to establish a HEMS system in an African country. Our talks to establish a heli-base at the most modern maximum care facility shattered this plan altogether when we were told in no uncertain terms that they couldn't handle those cases because - quote - "Our patients tend to triage themselves en-route! Whoever makes it here would've survived anyway!" and if we were to bring all those critically ill patients from horrific car crashes on a daily basis it would surpass their capabilities as well as their budget in a matter of days
Hawkeye0001 is offline  
Old 14th May 2018, 18:53
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 71
Posts: 1,305
Hawkeye - In Saudi we faced a situation where each hospital was established for a particular clientele and if you were not in that particular 'club' then the ambulance would be turned away. A 'joined-up' service requires everything else to be 'joined-up'.

We can all sit back to a certain extent and rest on our laurels for enough time has passed - 31 years now - to forget just how hard it was to get HEMS off the ground in the UK. No sooner had the announcement that we would begin the service here in Cornwall than the naysayers were at it. There were doctors and clinicians of all kinds taking up the cudgels. There was a bitter struggle to get through to the start-line on April 1st 1987 intact and it is down to the fortitude and clever political manoeuvring of the local NHS managers that we survived. At one stage even the D & C Police tried to head us off before the start date. The deployment of the Air Ambulance apparently threatened their plan to acquire a second machine for use in Cornwall (their B0105 was based in Devon at that time).

It wouldn't surprise me to find that similar tales of tribulation involving the kind of internal and external battles we experienced also featured in all the other Air Ambulance Units. One day someone will document the pathway our HEMS services have taken. They have apparently created a new branch of UK medicine called PREHOSPITAL CARE. Their story deserves to be told.
G.

Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 14th May 2018 at 19:09. Reason: additional info
Geoffersincornwall is offline  
Old 3rd Jul 2018, 20:16
  #48 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Ayrshire
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
A thin skinned Clinician, are You?
Anyway, Here in Norway we have had AirAmbulance since 1932 when Viggo Widerøe started with a floatplane saving life in remote places. The Airforce has always had the SAR capability using the Catalina initaly.
In 1978 Dr Jens Moe helped establish the Norwegian Air Ambulance Foundation, and there is a one page summary on luftambulanse.no that must be mandatory reading for a budding entrepneur like Your self !

This Gang is my heroes as when the sun drops and the storm leads to accidents, off they go on the VFR Night routes low level to pick up the wounded and get them to safety.
Not a place for amateurs , Son.
Its all been tried before, possible the most challenging Heli ops next to logging and Military.

Regards
Cpt B
I guess that explains why all these old guys shit themselves at the thought lol
ARobur is offline  
Old 4th Jul 2018, 05:36
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 56
Posts: 1,201
I think some of the costs quoted on this thread are a tadge excessive. Lease purchase a decent second hand 135 or equivelant and for day VMC OPS a budget of £1m p.a would easily suffice with a contracted AOC.

if it saves one life.................

We all pay insurance for vehicles, homes etc and very few ever claim. if we added £3 to every vehicle insurance policy sold the kitty would be big enough to cover UK with AAs without charity or hand to mouth existence.
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline  
Old 4th Jul 2018, 12:33
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lost again...
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY View Post
I think some of the costs quoted on this thread are a tadge excessive. Lease purchase a decent second hand 135 or equivelant and for day VMC OPS a budget of £1m p.a would easily suffice with a contracted AOC.

if it saves one life.................

We all pay insurance for vehicles, homes etc and very few ever claim. if we added £3 to every vehicle insurance policy sold the kitty would be big enough to cover UK with AAs without charity or hand to mouth existence.
I really do hear where you're coming from DB and in a perfect world it might well be the best thing, however...

What would actually happen is this: There would be a massive bun fight for the resources to run this uber-AA service. It would end up going to a single large operator who would then run it his own way to the advantage of the vested interests and the disadvantage of everyone else. Very soon it would not be £3, it would be £10 and there would be less aircraft.

At the moment the UK has superb AA coverage. yes it's spotty in places and it's sometimes inconsistent. Some of the charities and operators are "different" to the rest but there is a huge variety of operators and charities rather than one single overarching administrative behemoth. The charities generally have good relationships and recognition within their areas of operations and there is a sense of "ownership". Merging independent local AA into one single entity - Have a wee look at the NPAS thread to see how that's likely to turn out!

OH
OvertHawk is offline  
Old 4th Jul 2018, 16:54
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 56
Posts: 1,201
OH I hear you. I think ADAC are funded as I suggest. Maybe an ADAC driver could confirm?
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline  
Old 5th Jul 2018, 07:57
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kiwiland
Posts: 547
Merging independent local AA into one single entity
That is what we did 60 years ago today with hospitals. We call it the NHS. Not perfect, but at least we have integrated health care to a common standard, with common oversight for all the population. It covers all health care except.......air ambulances, where some are financially fine, others less so. Some are 24/7, others not. Some have doctors, others not. Some are well integrated into trauma care, others..... some do interhospital ITU work below recognised medical standards etc etc

I agree NPAS has been a disaster but surely we can do better
Radgirl is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2018, 20:19
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Tonbridge Wells
Posts: 17
You won't go far wrong with the Bell 429, very big cabin. Wiltshire AA operate one, give them a call they will be happy to talk to you.
Professor Bublinsky is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 16:56
  #54 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Ayrshire
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Professor Bublinsky View Post
You won't go far wrong with the Bell 429, very big cabin. Wiltshire AA operate one, give them a call they will be happy to talk to you.
Cool, thanks for the tip. I'll check it out.
ARobur is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.