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EC-135 crashes into ocean near Port Hedland off Western Australias Pilbara coast

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EC-135 crashes into ocean near Port Hedland off Western Australias Pilbara coast

Old 29th Mar 2018, 17:25
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ersa interesting so this is another example of 2 engines not saving the day then
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Old 29th Mar 2018, 18:41
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It doesn't matter how many engines you've got, it's the way you fly it.
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Old 29th Mar 2018, 21:16
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AnFI
ersa interesting so this is another example of 2 engines not saving the day then
Originally Posted by AnFI
ersa interesting so this is another example of 2 engines not saving the day then
What’s interesting about it? Do dead people interest you? You can fly into the water at night due to disorientation with one engine or 4 engines and the number will be irrelevant.
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Old 29th Mar 2018, 22:54
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver
It doesn't matter how many engines you've got, it's the way you fly it.
Hit the nail on the head......
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 00:47
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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The concept of 2 pilots - just like having 2 engines - is if one fails you have a spare. If it is a case of CFIT I'm struggling to understand how you can have a double-pilot failure.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 01:19
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If it is a case of CFIT I'm struggling to understand how you can have a double-pilot failure
Read a few accident reports, the ways are numerous, and there are plenty of reports available of such failures. It wasn't a two pilot operation, single pilot with a check pilot on board, in fact that may very well be a significant contributor to the accident for all we know.

AnFI, go boil your head.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 02:18
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Originally Posted by megan
..It wasn't a two pilot operation, single pilot with a check pilot on board, in fact that may very well be a significant contributor to the accident for all we know.
If the check pilot is doing the flying, which we understand was the case in this instance, surely the other pilot doesn't switch off? Or maybe the other pilot was alert to everything, except for the important fact they were about to fly into the sea.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 04:59
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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As I said, the ways are numerous. Here is a servicable helo, well it was a few seconds prior, bobbin in the oggin. You work out why and get back to us.

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Old 30th Mar 2018, 05:55
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Originally Posted by megan
As I said, the ways are numerous. Here is a servicable helo, well it was a few seconds prior, bobbin in the oggin. You work out why and get back to us.
If anybody could work out anything about Nigeria would come as a surprise.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 08:32
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Originally Posted by AnFI
ersa interesting so this is another example of 2 engines not saving the day then
AnFI, get a grip mate you really are showing yourself up now as a complete fool.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 08:46
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You put two check captains together and you are really asking for trouble.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 10:47
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I understand what AnFI is saying. Using a twin because it is perceived to be safer but it crashes anyway, through pilot error. If it doesn't matter how many engines then may as well only have one! So what AnFI says is correct in my opinion...
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 11:13
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Over thirty five years of flying single and twins I only had one engine failure in a single and none in a twin. However I have had several 'land immediately or as soon as possible' in singles. The same situations in twins have only been a pain in the backside.
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 19:58
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My military life consisted of shooting approaches to the hover over the sea for various reasons.
After a while it becomes second nature but because of our mil mentality monitoring eachothers actions in the descent was almost a religious act. Repeating instructions chanting lists, and sometimes praying for the engines to stay lit!
BUT it has been known occasionally for the driver to miss a cue and the co pilot not to follow up because they thought the HP was all over it with the end result that the anti coll on the underside got wet!
Maybe both pilots were overly relaxed about the others capabilities?

On the perennial twin engine issue.
I lost three engines in my 30 years of flying twins. None flying singles.
The first caused the computers to overtorque in the hover but even then we glanced off the sea transitioning away.
The 2nd in a twin squirrel lost some compressor blades over a city and forced me to land clear of the built up area.
The third was compressor stall every time i applied power forcing me to commit to land whilst over a football stadium.
All of the above would have ended very differently if i only flew singles!
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Old 30th Mar 2018, 20:03
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Fareast, quite right, I think the old fashioned unreliability of engines is one of the reasons that oldtimers often think twins sound like a good idea.
Did ersa say that in 50 years of doing this in singles no problem, first year in a twin splash?
Maybe they couldn't see out of the window?

Maybe they had a system failure?
Has the survivor spoken yet?
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 00:08
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Over thirty five years of flying single and twins I only had one engine failure in a single and none in a twin
I lost three engines in my 30 years of flying twins. None flying singles
Funny the diverse range of experiences. Personally never had a failure in a single, for which I'm thankful having spent many an hour over water with a single T-53 in all sorts of weather, including IMC at 500', at times looking down through the chin bubble at the wind driven spume and praying to Mr. Lycoming, because failure on his part would have meant death on our part. Twin? Two blow em up failures, same aircraft, first #2, then #1 a couple of years later. Hate Turbomeca as a result. Early Allison days provided a lot of opportunity to practise single engine due chip lights.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 00:44
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Since when did this thread become about twin vs single? This subject has been done to death and had no bearing on this accident. Very dark night (I was flying in the same area the following night), lack of visual cues, final stages of the approach, low speed, high ROD, splash. Nothing new here.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 01:40
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Originally Posted by Mark Six
Since when did this thread become about twin vs single?...
It does have its place. Because in this operation they flew single for 50 years without a prang, and within a year of changing to twin they had a fatal. Perhaps a point being, flying a modern well equipped twin engine helicopter might lead to a degree of less heightened vigilance that is not present when flying a very basic single in a challenging night environment which crystallises all your senses to the nth degree.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 03:54
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
It does have its place. Because in this operation they flew single for 50 years without a prang, and within a year of changing to twin they had a fatal. Perhaps a point being, flying a modern well equipped twin engine helicopter might lead to a degree of less heightened vigilance that is not present when flying a very basic single in a challenging night environment which crystallises all your senses to the nth degree.
Deck approach on a pitch black night with one pilot checking the other, and already gone around once - tends to heighten the vigilance and chrystalise the senses no matter what you're flying. There might be a lot of factors involved in this accident but IMHO the number of engines will be found to be irrelevant.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 04:27
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mark Six
Deck approach on a pitch black night with one pilot checking the other, and already gone around once - tends to heighten the vigilance and chrystalise the senses no matter what you're flying. There might be a lot of factors involved in this accident but IMHO the number of engines will be found to be irrelevant.
Did the check pilot start loading the handling pilot up with emergencies leading up to the accident?

I look forward to reading the reports when they come out.
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