OH You New York Girls....Can't You Dance The Polka!
Thread Starter
Crab,
That is interesting.
On your favorite aircraft...the SeaKing....could you look out the cockpit and see the forward landing gear?
I know for a fact you could not see the Tail Wheel from the Cockpit.
How did you "know" where the Tail Wheel "was" while doing this taxi training.
Better yet...how did you teach the Students where the Tail Wheel "was"?
Chinook pilots have a problem in learning that as none of the wheels can be seen from the Cockpit....much like most Boeing Airplanes extant.
So...I wonder....is it more an art than science when it comes to this "knowing where the wheels are" thing. Don't we develop a "feel" for the wheels through experience and in some cases the less artful among us never do develop that "feel"?
That is interesting.
On your favorite aircraft...the SeaKing....could you look out the cockpit and see the forward landing gear?
I know for a fact you could not see the Tail Wheel from the Cockpit.
How did you "know" where the Tail Wheel "was" while doing this taxi training.
Better yet...how did you teach the Students where the Tail Wheel "was"?
Chinook pilots have a problem in learning that as none of the wheels can be seen from the Cockpit....much like most Boeing Airplanes extant.
So...I wonder....is it more an art than science when it comes to this "knowing where the wheels are" thing. Don't we develop a "feel" for the wheels through experience and in some cases the less artful among us never do develop that "feel"?
Still looking for some mitigation in respect of the f**kup
We've all been there, done that(or will do) to some extent.
Sas, you can, during a walkround, show the distance from the cockpit to the tailwheel and then, when sat in the cockpit, get the pilot to visualise where it is.
The size of the parking spots meant that you could quite quickly establish where the front of the circle needed to be, in order to get the tailwheel just inside it.
It does become a 'feel' thing, just like knowing the width of your car and what space you can go through in it.
Knowing where the wheels are is the same as having someone stand under the edge of the rotor disc so so can visualise how far it is from you and therefore establish clearances for the MR.
Also like knowing where your tail is in a single pilot helo so you can descend into a confined area safely.
Not rocket science
The size of the parking spots meant that you could quite quickly establish where the front of the circle needed to be, in order to get the tailwheel just inside it.
It does become a 'feel' thing, just like knowing the width of your car and what space you can go through in it.
Knowing where the wheels are is the same as having someone stand under the edge of the rotor disc so so can visualise how far it is from you and therefore establish clearances for the MR.
Also like knowing where your tail is in a single pilot helo so you can descend into a confined area safely.
Not rocket science
Thread Starter
Crab,
At a place called Tay Ninh, in a land far away, at the C-130 Turn-Around Ramp (Load/Unload Ramp), there were some wooden Light Poles along the edge of the Ramp. A friend was tasked to pull onto the edge of the ramp and load some Classified Cargo.
Knowing it would be a close fit, he stopped short of the Ramp, briefed the Crew of his intentions, dispatched the Crew Chief to act as a Ground Guide.
The Crew Chief, who was a very sharp fellow....and standing about Six Foot Six Inches tall was very easy to see. He stationed himself about an arm's length away from the nearest Pole and began to guide the Aircraft to its parking place.
Being as how Tay Ninh was a Tactical base with PSP Matting for the ramp and it being dry season....and the surrounds being very dry, dusty, red laterite soil....the Chinook began to kick up a lot of dust.
Squarely into the Ground Guides eyes...he used one hand to clear an eye...but unfortunately made a couple of "Continue ahead" hand signs....and the Forward Blades cut off the Wooden Pole about a foot above his Hand..and not much more above his lofty noggin.
Write off a set of Rotor Blades, one Light Pole, and a pair of GI issue underwear all in short order. No one got hurt....the aircraft got some extra attention by the maintenance section, and the crew got a lot of grief from the rest of the crews.
Enough that the Unit Commander took no official action.
All it takes is a moment's lapse in attention despite the best efforts of a crew and calamity can occur.
At Unit Reunions we still enjoy hearing the story especially when it is the ground guide telling it from his perspective.
At a place called Tay Ninh, in a land far away, at the C-130 Turn-Around Ramp (Load/Unload Ramp), there were some wooden Light Poles along the edge of the Ramp. A friend was tasked to pull onto the edge of the ramp and load some Classified Cargo.
Knowing it would be a close fit, he stopped short of the Ramp, briefed the Crew of his intentions, dispatched the Crew Chief to act as a Ground Guide.
The Crew Chief, who was a very sharp fellow....and standing about Six Foot Six Inches tall was very easy to see. He stationed himself about an arm's length away from the nearest Pole and began to guide the Aircraft to its parking place.
Being as how Tay Ninh was a Tactical base with PSP Matting for the ramp and it being dry season....and the surrounds being very dry, dusty, red laterite soil....the Chinook began to kick up a lot of dust.
Squarely into the Ground Guides eyes...he used one hand to clear an eye...but unfortunately made a couple of "Continue ahead" hand signs....and the Forward Blades cut off the Wooden Pole about a foot above his Hand..and not much more above his lofty noggin.
Write off a set of Rotor Blades, one Light Pole, and a pair of GI issue underwear all in short order. No one got hurt....the aircraft got some extra attention by the maintenance section, and the crew got a lot of grief from the rest of the crews.
Enough that the Unit Commander took no official action.
All it takes is a moment's lapse in attention despite the best efforts of a crew and calamity can occur.
At Unit Reunions we still enjoy hearing the story especially when it is the ground guide telling it from his perspective.
All it takes is a moment's lapse in attention despite the best efforts of a crew and calamity can occur.
Apparently, more car accidents happen within 5 minutes of the persons home than anywhere else - perhaps an indication that how ever vigilant we are on the drive back from work, we tend to relax when we think it is nearly done - perhaps a parallel to draw with landing and taxying in - don't switch off until the rotors have stopped.
Thread Starter
It is the "benign" times that get us usually....as if we are on our guard....we are paying far more attention to what is going on.
It is the old White,Yellow, Red Zone concept of mental alertness thing.
It is the old White,Yellow, Red Zone concept of mental alertness thing.
So we are all singing from the same hymn sheet except the guy driving the Blackhawk
A lot of quotes apply crab. I'll bet a penny to a pound that the most critical person viewing the video is the driver concerned.
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest. Confucius
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. Will Rogers
I made decisions that I regret, and I took them as learning experiences... I'm human, not perfect, like anybody else. Queen Latifah
Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills. Minna Antrim
But it's a journey and the sad thing is you only learn from experience, so as much as someone can tell you things, you have to go out there and make your own mistakes in order to learn. Emma Watson
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest. Confucius
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. Will Rogers
I made decisions that I regret, and I took them as learning experiences... I'm human, not perfect, like anybody else. Queen Latifah
Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills. Minna Antrim
But it's a journey and the sad thing is you only learn from experience, so as much as someone can tell you things, you have to go out there and make your own mistakes in order to learn. Emma Watson
Crab,
The Touchdown Positioning Circle should always be 0.5D of the design helicopter. This ensures that the helicopter undercarriage always fits onto the minimum dimension TLOF - i.e. the surface area (which, in ICAO should be no smaller than 0.83D).
With this aircraft (and the EC360), the rear wheel does not sit inside the circle - nor is it intended to (just as some nose wheels do not). It is these considerations that have driven the minimum size of TLOFs. When the TPDM(C) is correctly drawn/positioned, the pilot can trust that the wheels are correctly contained on the surface of the heliport when sitting on the bum-line (the inner circumference of the circle).
It is exceptionally difficult designing a turning circle lead-in line that will fit all helicopters; for stands that have turning on the ground, the area required, is left to the manufacturer to define for that reason.
There have been occasions (in my time) when the rear-wheel of the S61 has been 'dropped' off the back of a helideck.
Jim
The Touchdown Positioning Circle should always be 0.5D of the design helicopter. This ensures that the helicopter undercarriage always fits onto the minimum dimension TLOF - i.e. the surface area (which, in ICAO should be no smaller than 0.83D).
With this aircraft (and the EC360), the rear wheel does not sit inside the circle - nor is it intended to (just as some nose wheels do not). It is these considerations that have driven the minimum size of TLOFs. When the TPDM(C) is correctly drawn/positioned, the pilot can trust that the wheels are correctly contained on the surface of the heliport when sitting on the bum-line (the inner circumference of the circle).
It is exceptionally difficult designing a turning circle lead-in line that will fit all helicopters; for stands that have turning on the ground, the area required, is left to the manufacturer to define for that reason.
There have been occasions (in my time) when the rear-wheel of the S61 has been 'dropped' off the back of a helideck.
Jim
Last edited by JimL; 22nd Jan 2018 at 12:23. Reason: Typos
Let us consider that the pilot may or may not have been familiar with the heliport in this case:
If he was familiar then the limitations of the taxy area should not have come as a surprise and he would have realised that turning left before turning right would put the tail wheel perilously close to the edge.
If he wasn't familiar, then a certain amount of caution would have been prudent and using the rest of the crew to assist would have been professional.
Either way there is no excuse for trashing an aircraft in this way.
- Megan, I think we moved away from that idea in aviation many years ago since it costs a lot in lives and equipment - the whole point of a Safety Management System is that we learn from other people's mistakes and use training, both in the air and on the ground, to prevent accidents like this - it was wholly avoidable.
To err is human - we all know that and acknowledge our own frailty but, while everyone makes mistakes, let's not pretend that crashing a helicopter (because that is what he did) is the same as breaking a glass or bumping another car in the car park (Parisian parking) - this mistake will cost a lot of taxpayers dollars and could easily have been much worse.
The crew f**ked up for whatever reason, in a situation that they really, really shouldn't have done and will doubtless suffer the consequences and wonder why they (collectively and individually) didn't put slightly more effort into a pretty simple task and avoid the ignominy of being 'that crew who tore off the tailwheel while taxying and ended up on youtube'.
If he was familiar then the limitations of the taxy area should not have come as a surprise and he would have realised that turning left before turning right would put the tail wheel perilously close to the edge.
If he wasn't familiar, then a certain amount of caution would have been prudent and using the rest of the crew to assist would have been professional.
Either way there is no excuse for trashing an aircraft in this way.
But it's a journey and the sad thing is you only learn from experience, so as much as someone can tell you things, you have to go out there and make your own mistakes in order to learn. Emma Watson
To err is human - we all know that and acknowledge our own frailty but, while everyone makes mistakes, let's not pretend that crashing a helicopter (because that is what he did) is the same as breaking a glass or bumping another car in the car park (Parisian parking) - this mistake will cost a lot of taxpayers dollars and could easily have been much worse.
The crew f**ked up for whatever reason, in a situation that they really, really shouldn't have done and will doubtless suffer the consequences and wonder why they (collectively and individually) didn't put slightly more effort into a pretty simple task and avoid the ignominy of being 'that crew who tore off the tailwheel while taxying and ended up on youtube'.
Thread Starter
we learn from other people's mistakes and use training, both in the air and on the ground, to prevent accidents like this
Errrrr....wrong! We learn OF other people's mistakes and the intent is for us to learn from them.
All learning and training is limited by the degree to which it is utilized in Operations and is limited in effectiveness only to the degree such learning and training equates to the context it was provided.
As Jim L notes....the Bum Line is supposed to be the answer.
Question for Jim L...how does the Bum Line work for Tandem Cockpits like the Huey Cobra, Apache, and other such helicopters as compared to say a MD 500.
One size does not fit all despite what Government tries to tell us.
Likewise training in/for Standardized Environments is fine....but then those cookbook solutions do not last long when a non-standardized environment is encountered.
Look at Rotorhead's list of Threads right now and you can see the proof of that.
Training and Standardized Procedures are a good start but it also has to assume there is that most important factor called "Judgement" or the far more rare thing called "plain old commonsense" are part of the equation.
Humans ain't perfect....that is why things like this tail wheel loss happen.
As Will Rogers once said:
There are three kinds of men.
The one that learns by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
The one that learns by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Having flown and taxied both tail wheel configs, I'll just say that SA was still in the ready room during that taxiing evolution.
For those of you ridiculing the aircrew, I'll offer a point of view for you: the maneuver from the front end caught the back end guy on the port side by surprise. Putting that another way, the guy in the back isn't expecting that move (the turn so soon) so it's not unusual to have that "surprise" effect cut into the fractions of a second that an ICS transmission "tail wheel clearance!" or "stop turn" can get through a pilot's ears and into his brain housing unit.
For those of you ridiculing the aircrew, I'll offer a point of view for you: the maneuver from the front end caught the back end guy on the port side by surprise. Putting that another way, the guy in the back isn't expecting that move (the turn so soon) so it's not unusual to have that "surprise" effect cut into the fractions of a second that an ICS transmission "tail wheel clearance!" or "stop turn" can get through a pilot's ears and into his brain housing unit.
Thread Starter
Wrong Navy Old Chap....only Ice Cream Machines
on the US Gray Funnel Line.
on the US Gray Funnel Line.
Errrrr....wrong! We learn OF other people's mistakes and the intent is for us to learn from them.
Lonewolf - I am not ridiculing the aircrew, I don't think what they did is amusing or jokeworthy but, as you say, the SA was still in the readyroom and there is no real reason why it should have been.
Whether the front to rear (and back again) communications broke down for technical, cultural or institutional reasons, it clearly did break down. Whether the pilot didn't indicate his intentions adequately or the rearcrew didn't hear, didn't care or didn't know better is up to the accident investigation team to determine but none of that excuses the fact it did happen and it happened to a US Navy crew who really should be better than that.
Bum lines are great, right up to the point when they aren't for your particular type of aircraft.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Lonewolf - I am not ridiculing the aircrew
Thread Starter
The crew f**ked up for whatever reason, in a situation that they really, really shouldn't have done and will doubtless suffer the consequences and wonder why they (collectively and individually) didn't put slightly more effort into a pretty simple task and avoid the ignominy of being 'that crew who tore off the tailwheel while taxying and ended up on youtube'.
Nope...no Sir Ree Bob....I am glad he is not ridiculing the Crew.
I ponder what ridicule would sound like?
Crab probably does not grasp that sometimes Monkey's do fall out of trees.
I am not ridiculing the aircrew, I don't think what they did is amusing or jokeworthy but, as you say, the SA was still in the readyroom and there is no real reason why it should have been
Huey sitting on PSP in the revetment doing the cool down run. PIC dropped an item into the chin bubble, so hopped out leaving the co pilot to complete shut down. In attempting to retrieve dropped item he pushed a pedal full forward to gain access, with the result the tail boom slammed into the revetment wall. Experienced pilot at the end of a long day. Fatigue, dehydration, low blood sugar, awareness of CoF PSP and skids, in a rush to the loo? Who knows? RN QHI graduate.
As for the SA being in the ready room on the Wall St. incident, lets wait and see. There are many issues that can arise to detract from optimum personal performance, even in a seemingly simple evolution. Problems at home being just one.
My comment in post 2 was simply a reaction to the video and calling them f**wits was shorthand for persons displaying professional skills that could easily have led them to receive a posthumous Darwin award.
If the aircraft had hit harder (TR contact) or rolled more (MR contact) we could easily have been talking serious injuries or fatalities in this case - would we really still be banging on about how 'accidents happen', 'gotta make mistakes to learn' and other hoary old chestnuts to try to remove blame from the crew?
Reality check - all they had to do was land, taxy in and park - in a no-threat environment, day, nice weather, no urgent operational pressures (judging from the relaxed demeanor of the rearcrew), no other aircraft, no technical emergency (again, crew very relaxed) and between them they ripped the tailwheel off the aircraft.
If it wasn't the US Navy, would we have such defence of the crew?
If the aircraft had hit harder (TR contact) or rolled more (MR contact) we could easily have been talking serious injuries or fatalities in this case - would we really still be banging on about how 'accidents happen', 'gotta make mistakes to learn' and other hoary old chestnuts to try to remove blame from the crew?
Reality check - all they had to do was land, taxy in and park - in a no-threat environment, day, nice weather, no urgent operational pressures (judging from the relaxed demeanor of the rearcrew), no other aircraft, no technical emergency (again, crew very relaxed) and between them they ripped the tailwheel off the aircraft.
If it wasn't the US Navy, would we have such defence of the crew?
Thread Starter
The aircraft lost a tail wheel, no rotor blades hit anything, the aircraft received some relatively minor damage, no one got hurt, and no other property, aircraft got damaged, and no people got hurt or killed.
Crab....when you find yourself in a hole....the immediate action in self rescue is to simply quit digging.
Put down your shovel.
Ask yourself the question: If it had been an RAF SAR Sea King....would I have said what I did the way I did in tone and manner?
We all know the answer so you do not have to tell us what your answer to yourself is.
I for one, found the video to have some real value for humor (particularly as no one got hurt).
To consider what the Handling Pilot was thinking as He called for the Shut Down Checklist and had to remark that they could omit any action re the Tail Wheel Lock....well, that makes me laugh out loud.
I don't care which service or operator the aircraft belonged to as anyone of us could make such a mistake or something similar.
Crab....when you find yourself in a hole....the immediate action in self rescue is to simply quit digging.
Put down your shovel.
Ask yourself the question: If it had been an RAF SAR Sea King....would I have said what I did the way I did in tone and manner?
We all know the answer so you do not have to tell us what your answer to yourself is.
I for one, found the video to have some real value for humor (particularly as no one got hurt).
To consider what the Handling Pilot was thinking as He called for the Shut Down Checklist and had to remark that they could omit any action re the Tail Wheel Lock....well, that makes me laugh out loud.
I don't care which service or operator the aircraft belonged to as anyone of us could make such a mistake or something similar.