SAR S-92 Missing Ireland
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
I posted earlier, Irish Aviation Authority VFR maps use a red circle as the symbol for a lighthouse.
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
From: 60 north
Black dot for light house!
I just pulled out my Dads old ICAO 1:500 000 VFR chart to check how a lighthouse is marked.:
It is with a black dot, no elevation or height and Feiestein Light ( WestSW of SVG for example)
And in the margin a fine drawing of the lighthouse with 112 on top of it.
Probably a fine thing for Mr VFR on one of his trips to Stavanger for coffee and waffels, but rather crude even if at scale 1:250 000 for any low level night stuff.
Anyway, if the chart had used the ICAO Annex 4 black dot with Blackrock Light printed next to it, we would perhaps not have had this exchange.
It is with a black dot, no elevation or height and Feiestein Light ( WestSW of SVG for example)
And in the margin a fine drawing of the lighthouse with 112 on top of it.
Probably a fine thing for Mr VFR on one of his trips to Stavanger for coffee and waffels, but rather crude even if at scale 1:250 000 for any low level night stuff.
Anyway, if the chart had used the ICAO Annex 4 black dot with Blackrock Light printed next to it, we would perhaps not have had this exchange.
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
Pass the parcel
State safety plan 2017;
"In common with the practice in many States, an Irish hel- icopter operator may be involved in both civil aviation activities (eg CAT/HEMS) and state functions (eg SAR). Whereas the IAA has safety oversight of the civil aviation operations, the oversight of state functions rests with the Department of Transport Tourism and Sport. "
https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/iaa-state-safety-report-2017-2020.pdf?sfvrsn=0
This is interesting, especially considering the following;
"The IAA maintains an Aviation Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) at Shannon Airport and an Aviation Rescue Sub-Centre (ARSC) at Dublin Airport. The Safety Regulation Division of the IAA is the body responsible for the regulation and oversight of aircraft operations, including aeronautical Search and Rescue, within the State."
http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/irish-national-maritime-search-and-rescue-sar-framework/sar-framework.pdf
So, when the music stops, who is left holding the parcel, unfortunately it is the crew of R116 and their colleagues who are and have to deal with a politically and commercially driven environment.
My highest respect to all working in this vacuum.
"In common with the practice in many States, an Irish hel- icopter operator may be involved in both civil aviation activities (eg CAT/HEMS) and state functions (eg SAR). Whereas the IAA has safety oversight of the civil aviation operations, the oversight of state functions rests with the Department of Transport Tourism and Sport. "
https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/iaa-state-safety-report-2017-2020.pdf?sfvrsn=0
This is interesting, especially considering the following;
"The IAA maintains an Aviation Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) at Shannon Airport and an Aviation Rescue Sub-Centre (ARSC) at Dublin Airport. The Safety Regulation Division of the IAA is the body responsible for the regulation and oversight of aircraft operations, including aeronautical Search and Rescue, within the State."
http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/irish-national-maritime-search-and-rescue-sar-framework/sar-framework.pdf
So, when the music stops, who is left holding the parcel, unfortunately it is the crew of R116 and their colleagues who are and have to deal with a politically and commercially driven environment.
My highest respect to all working in this vacuum.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 857
Likes: 26
From: Dublin
RTÉ's flag ship current affairs programme "Prime Time" has tonight (13th July) carried a report claiming that Sligo based SAR pilots had back in 2013 informed CHC of issues with the information regarding Blackrock Island in the oboard maps.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017...ckrock-island/
JAS
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017...ckrock-island/
JAS
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: Earth
The TV report is here: https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/pr...3379/10750839/
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,735
Likes: 21
From: Used to be God's own County
hang on.....
Doesn't CHC hold an annual 'global' safety seminar, accompanied with a lot of PR bolleux?
They would have surely practiced what they preached and ensured feedback/compliance/ closing the loop.........and would have ran that particular issue up the flag pole to signal action and further ownership of the challenge before going forward......
I think it's about time CHC cease the annual farce of their safety seminar until they actually 'practice what they preach'.......
They would have surely practiced what they preached and ensured feedback/compliance/ closing the loop.........and would have ran that particular issue up the flag pole to signal action and further ownership of the challenge before going forward......
I think it's about time CHC cease the annual farce of their safety seminar until they actually 'practice what they preach'.......
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 768
Likes: 45
From: Montreal
Management/regulatory cockup of the grandest scale. Mystery now is that nobody in either the IAA or operator management team has been sacked. No comfort from all the good advice post incident, I'd want the competence on my team to foresee issues Before they turned into an accident. Quite a number of contributors to this thread have correctly been puzzled that the operation lacked any sophistication or depth of foresight by either the regulator or operator management. Either group could benefit from recruiting from that pool.
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Dublin
I just pulled out my Dads old ICAO 1:500 000 VFR chart to check how a lighthouse is marked.:
It is with a black dot, no elevation or height and Feiestein Light ( WestSW of SVG for example)
And in the margin a fine drawing of the lighthouse with 112 on top of it.
Probably a fine thing for Mr VFR on one of his trips to Stavanger for coffee and waffels, but rather crude even if at scale 1:250 000 for any low level night stuff.
Anyway, if the chart had used the ICAO Annex 4 black dot with Blackrock Light printed next to it, we would perhaps not have had this exchange.
It is with a black dot, no elevation or height and Feiestein Light ( WestSW of SVG for example)
And in the margin a fine drawing of the lighthouse with 112 on top of it.
Probably a fine thing for Mr VFR on one of his trips to Stavanger for coffee and waffels, but rather crude even if at scale 1:250 000 for any low level night stuff.
Anyway, if the chart had used the ICAO Annex 4 black dot with Blackrock Light printed next to it, we would perhaps not have had this exchange.
The new map has a blue circle (revised lighthouse symbol?) with text alongside giving a description of the lighthouse (174/frequency etc) but crucially now has the height of the island (712) marked by a smaller black circle. 712 also is now in the white rectangle.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: EU
Rescue 116 crash: Pilots’ group raised concerns over IAA
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: EU
Latest search for Rescue 116 winch crew is stood down
Search for R116 crew continues off Blackrock Island
Search for missing Rescue 116 airmen continues 130 days on
Further searches take place off Blackrock Island for Rescue 116 crew
Rescue 116: Donegal trawler resumes search around Blackrock island
Donegal trawler continues fresh search for Rescue 116 airmen
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: VANCOUVER, BC
Private Equity firms and boxes of lean tape.
They do not know or understand what safety in aviation means. Yet some of them sponsor real Safety & Quality Summits with real speakers. If it's true that this unfortunate accident was the result of out-dated software and that it was brought up time and time again internally, than the ones responsible for choosing more lean tape instead of software updates should be forced to meet the families and explain it to them. Then they should be banned from stepping into any aviation company, for life. Of course I'm assuming that someone chose lean tape over software updates and I may be totally off-course. I would lean more towards a total lack of understanding of the helicopter business and what we call safety. I have seen a shift through the years and it is not good. The village idiots are definitely in charge now and they hold MBA's and more! They're not smart enough to know any better, but they can tell you how to lean a production plant in a heart beat. None of us work for production plants. Scary times! Good thing I'm retiring soon!
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 857
Likes: 26
From: Dublin
It's being reported that a helmet and lifejacket found on the coast on Saturday belonged to winchman Ciarán Smith.
From The Irish Times, 2nd Oct 2017
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...mith-1.3241642
JAS
From The Irish Times, 2nd Oct 2017
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...mith-1.3241642
JAS
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: EU
Truly shocking!!!!!!!
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017...02-rescue-116/
https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon
RTE Primetime - report should appear here soon
https://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...ions-1.3270581
Ongoing safety concerns for search and rescue helicopter services
RTÉ’s Prime Time also reported that a few weeks before the R116 crash, Coast Guard pilots began testing a new electronic mapping system which was uploaded on to a mini iPad and strapped to the pilots' knee boards.
Both pilots on R116 took these iPads on board on the night of the crash off the Co Mayo coast.
The map that was used was not approved for use as a navigation tool as it was still on trial.
It showed Black Rock Island at 46ft, however, it is 282ft at its highest point.
RTÉ’s Prime Time has learned that the search and rescue teams had been complaining about poor quality maps and navigation equipment for months before the crash.
In September 2016, a flight safety meeting attended by R116 winch man Paul Ormsby, discussed feedback on their new Operations Manual.
The manual warned that the moving map system on board the helicopters should not be used for primary navigation "as it provides insufficient detail and is not kept up to date".
RTÉ’s Prime Time also reported that a few weeks before the R116 crash, Coast Guard pilots began testing a new electronic mapping system which was uploaded on to a mini iPad and strapped to the pilots' knee boards.
Both pilots on R116 took these iPads on board on the night of the crash off the Co Mayo coast.
The map that was used was not approved for use as a navigation tool as it was still on trial.
It showed Black Rock Island at 46ft, however, it is 282ft at its highest point.
RTÉ’s Prime Time has learned that the search and rescue teams had been complaining about poor quality maps and navigation equipment for months before the crash.
In September 2016, a flight safety meeting attended by R116 winch man Paul Ormsby, discussed feedback on their new Operations Manual.
The manual warned that the moving map system on board the helicopters should not be used for primary navigation "as it provides insufficient detail and is not kept up to date".
https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon
RTE Primetime - report should appear here soon
https://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/
Rescue 116: HSA investigation opens possibility of prosecutions
Faulty locator beacons in crew’s life jackets highlighted five years ago, RTÉ reports
Faulty locator beacons in crew’s life jackets highlighted five years ago, RTÉ reports
Last edited by Red5ive; 27th October 2017 at 00:11.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: EU
As mentioned above
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/pr...3379/10794966/
Duration = 24 minutes
(might need an Irish proxy)
Thu 26 Oct 2017
Rescue 116 | Prime Time
Katie Hannon reveals the continuing safety concerns for Ireland's Search and Rescue Helicopters services, some of which were raised as far back as five years ago.
Rescue 116 | Prime Time
Katie Hannon reveals the continuing safety concerns for Ireland's Search and Rescue Helicopters services, some of which were raised as far back as five years ago.
Duration = 24 minutes
(might need an Irish proxy)
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 16
From: Here
This is an excellent documentary that reports several apparently disturbing issues surrounding this crash.