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Old 31st Mar 2017, 22:39   #41 (permalink)
 
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Jay Sata,

You've jumped in to a Rotorheads issue of very long standing and I trust you will get taken to task for your ill informed and quite inappropriate meanderings. As a journalist you should know the value of research on a topic before putting pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard.

It would appear that you have done little or none. I commend to you previous threads dealing with NPAS and the lack of savings, financial and other reports posted after FoI returns, first hand experiences from police crews.

And the comment
Quote:
The Wattisham police crew can be deployed back in the job and the five pilots can easily find work elsewhere.
shows a callous and total lack of understanding of the helicopter job market at the moment.

ps where do power line patrols and aerial filming fit into NPAS, please? The subject of this thread?
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 00:20   #42 (permalink)

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One of us is on another planet...........

NEO
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 05:59   #43 (permalink)
 
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NPAS was formed to deliver more cost effective police aerial support.

That is exactly what they are doing.

If you look at the twitter feeds on the NPAS site it is evident that many police helicopter sorties are still missing persons who turn up.

This from Bournmouth last night.

00:45 Hrs lifted to assist Avon and Somerset Police with a high risk missing person in South Somerset area. They returned home of their own accord safe and well as we arrived on scene. #DR
https://www.facebook.com/NPAS45/?hc_...MELINE&fref=nf

Benson is the same.

NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson
1145hrs - lifted to assist @tvprp and @TVP_Oxford look for a stolen vehicle. No trace... #p1526


NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson
2015hrs - assisting @wiltshirepolice in Swindon looking for a missing male. Found with relatives. #p1526

What did those cost?

The money saved should be funnelled to solving crime.

A recent Freedom of Information request revealed fewer than 10 per cent of the 2,125,861 burglaries committed over six years were solved, with only 206,009 culprits identified.

Bedfordshire Police had the worst record on burglary, solving only 6 per cent of cases over six years.

Meanwhile they waste money on petty crime air support.

NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson
24/3 2300hrs searching Biggleswade area with @bedspolice & @BCHPoliceDogs unit after persons made off from a vehicle #p6572

Like many I want to see more police on the streets and not wasting money on what are mostly false alarms or stolen cars.

Last edited by Jay Sata; 1st Apr 2017 at 06:23.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 10:43   #44 (permalink)
 
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Sadly Jay, whilst I believe you're misguided in your belief about air support, the police haven't got the resources to provide a decent service on the ground let alone in the air. As for the missing persons, the police model of threat harm risk means that even if I was on a "tasty" job, I would be pulled of that for the 80 year old dementia patient gone missing. I'm afraid that we are in a race to the bottom.
I can assure you that police aviation does have its place (dynamic incidents like we sadly saw in London) and of course, the unquantifiable deterrent. These will be unlikely to satisfy people like yourselves, Stats are not the be all and end all. Drones are not the answer to all the issues, but I agree that they have a place, but I'm curious as to how they will be employed. If we take the dog handler model for example, I see these guys pulled all over the area, very often turning up way too late to get a decent track, not their fault, just not enough of them.
You have your opinion, if we go, we go, but if it's just about money, then what's next? Dacia police cars? Or maybe we can look at the military? QE class? F35?
You can't have your cake and eat it chum.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 15:08   #45 (permalink)
 
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99.999999% of people think that sending up a helicopter to look for a missing person is a waste of money........................until, it is their parent or child who has gone missing. They then become the first to demand to know why the helicopter wasn't deployed. You can't win with some people and Jay strikes me as being one of them.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 16:14   #46 (permalink)
 
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Yawn.....another armchair expert. I must find a doctors forum and give my expert opinion on how much better they could run the NHS.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 17:02   #47 (permalink)
 
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Hmmm,, he probably knows even less about armchairs than he does about police aviation!
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 17:24   #48 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
Most missing persons are found and the rest are dead as they set out to commit suicide.
I'd like to see your research on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
Using a very expensive publicly funded police resource and personel is not cost effective.
Sorry, what is your mother worth? Or your child? Or your grandmother?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
Stolen car chases ,drunk drivers,petty drug dealers etc are also not going to deliver bang per buck with bean counters.
Yes, I suppose you have a valid point, saving lives is not very cost-efficient.

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Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
The incessant throb of helicopters over London is a major source of annoyance for those of us who have to spend time in the city.
The incessant drone of journalists is a source of annoyance for those of us with some knowledge or the ability to research a topic fully before expressing an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
The regular political marches can be better policed by drones as can security issues.The reality is that there are many situations where drones can do a better and more cost effective job than a twin turbine helicopter.
Haven't researched drones then either, have we?

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Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
Low level power line survey and aerial filming being good examples.
Low level power line survey and aerial filming being poor examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
The Wattisham police crew can be deployed back in the job and the five pilots can easily find work elsewhere.
And, have you bothered to research what is actually happening to the crews? Here's a clue for you, it's nothing like you suggest.

Having a opinion on a topic is one thing, spouting nonsense after a few minutes on Google, Facebook and Twitter is quite another. If you are a journalist I hope that isn't a reflection of the lazy way you might go about putting together a story.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 22:11   #49 (permalink)
 
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I have no doubt that there are cost-efficient applications for drones. Maybe policing crowds at football matches etc - where it is over a relatively restricted area, for an extended time. I suspect they would not be effective at searching 20 miles of remote coastline for a misper, or searching a chunk of Snowdonia for a missing aircraft.
Unfortunately cost-effectiveness is not always easily quantifiable - if you launch 100 times and save one life - how do you measure that? worth it or not?
The protocol for vulnerable persons always used to be - send the helicopter, because it is better to send it and potentially waste a chunk of time & money as opposed to not send it and potentially waste a life.
If that protocol changes, it would represent a massive shift in ethos for the police.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 08:46   #50 (permalink)
 
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I flew intensive Police Operations in the early 90s. My first shift in Newcastle we had 7 vehicle pursuits each with a different story. The first ended in a fatal fireball in pennwell and the Scrote bought the farm!

At that time, tennagers were inadvertently using stolen cars as deadly weapons. It was a countrywide epidemic. We did relatively few mispers and like most have posted, they ended up croaked or having a cup of tea. Vehicle theft or Twoccing, was a national epedimeic that threatenened the insurance system and presented intolerable risks to the public and the purps themselves who were, for the most part, very young boys and girls.

It did not take long. Police ASUs appeared all over the country and in a few years we went from a pair of stab binos to the stateoftheart thermal imagery and broadcast quality cameras. These assets killed twoccing stone dead in a few short years. They also greatly improved surveillance capability and this definitely improved crime fighting.

Now police aviation has matured. Twoccing will probably never return as long as The Eye in the Sky is there. The tasty jobs have gone precisely because the Helicopter exists. But take the Helicopter away and see what happens.

For a Misper the Helicopter always adds value even if it does not locate the person. Searching an open area with FLIR often confirms the person is not where they are thought to be and thus efforts are concentrated elsewher.......like the pub or houses where the Helicopter cannot add value.

For me the financial formula must be simple. Decide how much much flying you can afford. Use the helicopter every time there is the slightest chance it might add value to: save a life, prevent harm to the public or fight crime. Review your budget at the end of the year and increase, decrease accordingly.

The helicopters can never be replaced by drones completely. They should remain but they are, as they have always been, victims of their own success.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 09:09   #51 (permalink)
 
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Oh, and I'd missed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
NPAS was formed to deliver more cost effective police aerial support.

That is exactly what they are doing.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 09:28   #52 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by alphanumeric View Post
I think the increasing installation of car immobilisers probably stopped off "Twoccing"
Alphanumeric, you would think so but sadly that was not the case. The clever little scrotes just bypassed the system with a extra vehicle wiring harness.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 11:15   #53 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by alphanumeric View Post
of course, err, there's loads of jobs around at the moment, hundreds.
In fact, last time I checked Flight Global, there was a steady stream of employers looking for pilots in Suffolk so don't really know what the problem is.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 11:16   #54 (permalink)
 
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In fact, last time I checked Flight Global, there was a steady stream of employers looking for pilots in Suffolk so don't really know what the problem is.
Or B.........
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 12:33   #55 (permalink)

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Some who consider pursuing stolen vehicles a waste of time and consider it a matter for insurance companies to deal with conveniently forget that the theft of a vehicle may be a lesser part of the crime committed.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 13:00   #56 (permalink)
 
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...or a precursor to the larger crime.

But, what would we know? We've not spent 7 minutes on Google and watched half of a Police Interceptors programme.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 14:47   #57 (permalink)

Avoid imitations
 
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I'd agree that drones would be useful for some of the relatively static and routine jobs, such as crowd surveillance. However, they aren't so suitable for dynamic policing because of the requirement for maintaining a line of sight from operator to drone. It should also be borne in mind that helicopters can actually carry police staff and can deploy them, drones obviously cannot.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 18:12   #58 (permalink)
 
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You could overcome both those problems by building a drone large enough that the operator could sit inside it, thereby always being in line of sight and then make it big enough to carry a couple of bobbies.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 20:36   #59 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxR View Post
...or a precursor to the larger crime.

But, what would we know? We've not spent 7 minutes on Google and watched half of a Police Interceptors programme.
No need now Max.

Check out some of the base twitter feeds.

https://mobile.twitter.com/npas_boreham?lang=en

https://mobile.twitter.com/npas_filton?lang=en
That one includes a jet ski stuck on a sandbank. Surely that's a lifeboat task and nothing to
do with the police?

https://mobile.twitter.com/NPAS_Carr...7Ctwgr%5Etweet

The daily twitter feeds illustrate the highly expensive air support is mostly used for routine non events.

Vulnerable people (those with mental issues or dementia ) are best tracked with tagging.

Most mispers carry phones so an easy way to track?

Drunk drivers and stolen cars are petty crime and not worth the chase.

High speed police pursuits often lead to fatalities.

I don't dispute there is a role for police aviation.

However if the twitter feeds are anything to go by the taxpayer is not getting a good deal.



.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 20:46   #60 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post


Drunk drivers and stolen cars are petty crime and not worth the chase.





.
Petty ? Really ? Having been first on scene to the carnage that can result from drunken driving and from scum who literally 'drive like they stole it', because they did, I have to politely disagree with you.

Polite ? I surprise myself
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