All's well that ends well
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 557
Likes: 27
From: At home
Crab,
The aerodynamics of the 44 helped the sling pilot to it's target being a VERY stable load. For the start it looked good, but the swinging of the load was induced by the pilot stirring the pot and not being in control of his load.
The oldest excuse in the book for this, is to blame it on the wind or downwash and I see it all the time with pilots not being current in longline work or with new pilots.
The ground crew could have helped out a bit with good hand signals though...
Your aerodynamic instability is true if we talk about light plane recovery, boats, parabolic antennas, survival shacks, drill floors, flat packed containers, packs of corrugated roofing sheets etc, not a 5-600 kg (lawn) dart
All external loads have it's own Vne which will ruin your day if you go past or at least scare you, and In your Lynx story the pilot of the Chinook flew past the Lynx's Vne as cargo
The video of the CH53 that dropps the CH47 that got out of control is a perfect example.
The aerodynamics of the 44 helped the sling pilot to it's target being a VERY stable load. For the start it looked good, but the swinging of the load was induced by the pilot stirring the pot and not being in control of his load.
The oldest excuse in the book for this, is to blame it on the wind or downwash and I see it all the time with pilots not being current in longline work or with new pilots.
The ground crew could have helped out a bit with good hand signals though...
Your aerodynamic instability is true if we talk about light plane recovery, boats, parabolic antennas, survival shacks, drill floors, flat packed containers, packs of corrugated roofing sheets etc, not a 5-600 kg (lawn) dart
All external loads have it's own Vne which will ruin your day if you go past or at least scare you, and In your Lynx story the pilot of the Chinook flew past the Lynx's Vne as cargo
The video of the CH53 that dropps the CH47 that got out of control is a perfect example.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Well put Nubian:
I agree 100% 
This one was an auto to a field in the middle of the Trinity Alps in Northern California:
The aerodynamics of the 44 helped the sling pilot to it's target being a VERY stable load.
This one was an auto to a field in the middle of the Trinity Alps in Northern California:
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
Nubian - you seem very quick to blame the pilot without being able to assess the conditions of the day.
A helicopter fuselage will tend to weathercock into wind - fine if you have decent airflow over the length of the fuselage but not at slower speeds. An aircraft with a bigger tail assembly (tail boom and fin) would be better but the Robbie has very little windage aft of the rotor mast.
Why else did they attach a drogue to the tail other than to try and keep it straight?
A helicopter fuselage will tend to weathercock into wind - fine if you have decent airflow over the length of the fuselage but not at slower speeds. An aircraft with a bigger tail assembly (tail boom and fin) would be better but the Robbie has very little windage aft of the rotor mast.
Why else did they attach a drogue to the tail other than to try and keep it straight?
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Curious to the difference between an EOL and an auto? Does EOL mean actually shutting down the engine? You'd have to be insane to do that imo. Or do you mean a full-down auto to an actual landing, as opposed to a power recovery auto?
fwiw, in the US at least, for a PPL-H you need to demonstrate competence flying an auto, but not a full down. That is needed for CFI-H (not even needed for CPL-H).
Personally I was lucky to have an instructor for a time who was happy to do full-downs but since I stopped flying with him, I have not done one. Most US schools etc REALLY do not want to do them. The outfit I currently fly helis with has one instructor (their chief pilot) who is willing to do them, though I haven't flown with him.
I regret it, because they're a real challenge and a lot of fun. But there it is.
fwiw, in the US at least, for a PPL-H you need to demonstrate competence flying an auto, but not a full down. That is needed for CFI-H (not even needed for CPL-H).
Personally I was lucky to have an instructor for a time who was happy to do full-downs but since I stopped flying with him, I have not done one. Most US schools etc REALLY do not want to do them. The outfit I currently fly helis with has one instructor (their chief pilot) who is willing to do them, though I haven't flown with him.
I regret it, because they're a real challenge and a lot of fun. But there it is.
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Aus
Same with the Gazelle, once the throttle was back, you were committed to a landing.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
Megan, it wasn't impossible - I have done it once - but it was actively discouraged to prevent damage to the clutch ISTR. Once you pulled the throttle back to idle (lever in the roof) you weren't supposed to advance it again until you had completed the EOL.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 557
Likes: 27
From: At home
Crab,
I take it from your other posts on here that you're not a production longline pilot, hence you don't see the situation as Gordy, myself and proficient pilots in our game.
The fact that the pilot is not able to get the load under control although using a horrible long time, only to put it down on the ground and be helped by the ground staff tell the tale.
But it amazes me that whenever things like this is being pointed out, there is a resistance to accept the facts and there is excuses left and right and finishing with the conclusion: job well done chap! windy conditions, gusts, downwash etc......
Then it is time to RTB for tea and medals......
Sorry to interrupt the EOL debate.
Happy holidays!
I take it from your other posts on here that you're not a production longline pilot, hence you don't see the situation as Gordy, myself and proficient pilots in our game.
The fact that the pilot is not able to get the load under control although using a horrible long time, only to put it down on the ground and be helped by the ground staff tell the tale.
But it amazes me that whenever things like this is being pointed out, there is a resistance to accept the facts and there is excuses left and right and finishing with the conclusion: job well done chap! windy conditions, gusts, downwash etc......
Then it is time to RTB for tea and medals......
Sorry to interrupt the EOL debate.
Happy holidays!
Joined: Feb 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 201
Likes: 4
From: Back of Bourke
The pilot in the Huey is a very, very experienced operator with some thousands of hours sling work. Look a little more closely at the video before hoicking insults at him.
The crewie could have done a far, far better job than standing under the load and getting in the way. The load should have been rigged with three or four tag lines, and two or three helpers positioned and briefed to stabilise the R44 onto the trailer.
The trailer was parked crosswind, a wide shot seems to show room enough for it to have been parked into wind.
And watch the surrounding scrub being blown around by a fairly gusty wind, taking the load (already trying to weathercock) away from the inputs by the pilot.
We all have bad days but there were some holes in the planning which had a far greater input than the driver!
The crewie could have done a far, far better job than standing under the load and getting in the way. The load should have been rigged with three or four tag lines, and two or three helpers positioned and briefed to stabilise the R44 onto the trailer.
The trailer was parked crosswind, a wide shot seems to show room enough for it to have been parked into wind.
And watch the surrounding scrub being blown around by a fairly gusty wind, taking the load (already trying to weathercock) away from the inputs by the pilot.
We all have bad days but there were some holes in the planning which had a far greater input than the driver!
Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Location, location - is very important when buying a house.
So, to conclude perhaps, a PPL pilot does a great job of an auto into bush land, narrowly avoiding the sea. He saves his family although he is just a PPL. But, the video proves how comical the professional pilot performs in lifting the survived machine. Nothing better than watching someone else not doing it your way. 
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
Nubian, although I have done plenty of underslung load work from 8 to 80 ft strops but not production long line work.
However, a pink body on anything up to 245 ft of winch wire being delivered to the back of pitching and rolling fishing vessels or the tiniest of footholds on a dark and windy mountainside was my usual 'longline' load. All the same handling skills are required.
I think you are being too harsh from the comfort of your armchair on the pilot in question.
However, a pink body on anything up to 245 ft of winch wire being delivered to the back of pitching and rolling fishing vessels or the tiniest of footholds on a dark and windy mountainside was my usual 'longline' load. All the same handling skills are required.
I think you are being too harsh from the comfort of your armchair on the pilot in question.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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Posts: 15,110
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
As Crab wrote, pilots were prohibited from attempting to re-engage the engine to avoid shock loading the transmission via the centrifugal clutch.
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Canada
The pre lift planning and ground crew briefing/training seems to be the big problem.
Wind conditions must have been pretty bad looking at the height/position variations in the hover.
Wind conditions must have been pretty bad looking at the height/position variations in the hover.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 557
Likes: 27
From: At home
Crab,
If I had the experience level as Squeaks say, and was performing as in the clip, I would not be insulted from the comments made here.
You compare is apples and oranges, but I'll refrain from starting a discussion on the differences. But I'm sure you're good at your ''thing''
Armchair?! he-he, have a look at the amount of post you have generated....
Squeaks,
No doubt you can have a bad day, and if the pilot is as experienced and proficient as you say, I am pretty sure he won't be insulted. The quality of the flying is not only down to the hours flown, although many believe so.
If I had the experience level as Squeaks say, and was performing as in the clip, I would not be insulted from the comments made here.
You compare is apples and oranges, but I'll refrain from starting a discussion on the differences. But I'm sure you're good at your ''thing''
Armchair?! he-he, have a look at the amount of post you have generated....
Squeaks,
No doubt you can have a bad day, and if the pilot is as experienced and proficient as you say, I am pretty sure he won't be insulted. The quality of the flying is not only down to the hours flown, although many believe so.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 330
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From: St Johns, Newfoundland,Canada
I lifted an R44 out the Boreal Forest last year. Although in a slightly more bent shape. Both occupants unfortunately killed. They fly fine in the cruise, but once rotor wash hits them on short final....same deal, putting it on a low loader with a cross wind. She went on no probs, but quite a work out and that's with over 10G hrs doing precision/production stuff. Also had the pressure of the RCMP, OPP and TSB looking on.That was probably the tenth A/C longline recovery for me.Mind you hadn't long lined in a couple of months as been on forestry spray. I agree Crab et al...you might have a few tho hrs doing strops ,decks and wets etc....but single pilot longline bit like IFR, if you haven't done it in a month or so, first couple of turns take a bit to get into. No SAS,auto hover and crew looking out the door. Anyways back at her on Boxing Day, be safe boys/girls....Merry Xmas!
