Emergency helicopter on standby
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Emergency helicopter on standby
I am a ppl (h) holder working in Morocco as a crane operator on the edge of the Sahara desert putting up wind turbines, my company have asked me to source a helicopter and have it on standby on site in case of an emergency as the nearest hospital is 2 hours away by road.
My question is, as I am a ppl (h) holder would I be legally be able to fly it isn case of an emergency, I won't be getting paid for it in anyway whatsoever.
Thank you.
My question is, as I am a ppl (h) holder would I be legally be able to fly it isn case of an emergency, I won't be getting paid for it in anyway whatsoever.
Thank you.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: North
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion you should stay well clear. By the description you have provided, it will be in direct support of and is being requested by a commercial operation for commercial purposes. Renumeration financially or not, it is a standby emergency helicopter, which is not pleasure flying for private purposes.
There are a whole host of other issues, legal and practical that make this very dodgy ground. Do you hold a license that allows you to fly in that country? Do you have all the relevant training and experience to operate in the desert with passengers on board? Is the helicopter certified for patient transport?
Without wanting to sound condescending, there is no such thing as a “simple helicopter for emergency standby”. It is a complex operation that needs correct supervision, planning and support. It is fraught with risk that you are clearly not fully aware of, and needs to be well planned and executed by experienced personnel. Even if you hold a CPL, I would suggest to operate in such a fashion you will need an AOC that encompasses some form of Special Operations in the Ops Manual such as HEMS or Ambulance flying as well as maintenance procedures for basing a helicopter in the field.
If the company needs an emergency helicopter on standby and it has been highlighted in the risk assessment of the operation, they need to pay for it. There will be undoubtedly local companies that can provide this. The local CAA needs to be informed and I suggest they will not allow such an operation. By not informing them, I would expect that if you arrive unannounced as an unregistered ambulance at a hospital in town with a helicopter, the sh!t would start to roll.
Bottom line - this is a commercial operation and must be treated as such, not just with regards to licensing but also to registration and legality of the company providing this.
There are a whole host of other issues, legal and practical that make this very dodgy ground. Do you hold a license that allows you to fly in that country? Do you have all the relevant training and experience to operate in the desert with passengers on board? Is the helicopter certified for patient transport?
Without wanting to sound condescending, there is no such thing as a “simple helicopter for emergency standby”. It is a complex operation that needs correct supervision, planning and support. It is fraught with risk that you are clearly not fully aware of, and needs to be well planned and executed by experienced personnel. Even if you hold a CPL, I would suggest to operate in such a fashion you will need an AOC that encompasses some form of Special Operations in the Ops Manual such as HEMS or Ambulance flying as well as maintenance procedures for basing a helicopter in the field.
If the company needs an emergency helicopter on standby and it has been highlighted in the risk assessment of the operation, they need to pay for it. There will be undoubtedly local companies that can provide this. The local CAA needs to be informed and I suggest they will not allow such an operation. By not informing them, I would expect that if you arrive unannounced as an unregistered ambulance at a hospital in town with a helicopter, the sh!t would start to roll.
Bottom line - this is a commercial operation and must be treated as such, not just with regards to licensing but also to registration and legality of the company providing this.
Last edited by 26500lbs; 27th Dec 2015 at 14:09.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
I won't be getting paid for it in anyway whatsoever.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like this is what you want to hear... (Devil's advocate)
The company you work for wants to have a helicopter to transport it's employees from A to B? It shouldn't be too difficult to do. Companies all over the world do that. Mine included.
Obviously you will need a suitable machine and a suitable license.
I know of companies that operate their own machines, for business use / staff transport etc, so it's not public transport nor an AOC operation. So no need for a commercial licensed pilot either (provided of course the pilot is not being paid as a pilot!).
Check with the local aviation authority if you can operate an N reg aircraft, if so get an airman certificate piggy back license and off you go...
The company you work for wants to have a helicopter to transport it's employees from A to B? It shouldn't be too difficult to do. Companies all over the world do that. Mine included.
Obviously you will need a suitable machine and a suitable license.
I know of companies that operate their own machines, for business use / staff transport etc, so it's not public transport nor an AOC operation. So no need for a commercial licensed pilot either (provided of course the pilot is not being paid as a pilot!).
Check with the local aviation authority if you can operate an N reg aircraft, if so get an airman certificate piggy back license and off you go...
Whether what is proposed is a good idea is another matter, but legally I doubt there is much to say about it.
I'm intrigued to know what "certified for patient transport" is, or why there is no such thing as a “simple helicopter for emergency standby". Are you forbidden to use a helo for "patient transport" without an extra burden of licensing? How would you fly someone with a cold in that case? Surely all helos, simple and complex, are capable of use in all sorts of "standby" modes without additional licensing.
If some poor sod needs a casevac does 26500lbs suggest it can't be done in the simple company pickup used for emergency standby with a crane driver at the wheel? Whyever not? Just because he isn't paid as an ambulance driver, has no casevac training and no taxi driver's licence? Or the pickup isn't "certified" for "patient transport"... the mind boggles.
So, in principle and as long, as far as I recall, that the "primary duty" of the driver isn't stated as "helicopter pilot" he probably could fly it quite legally.
But by the time you'd sourced a helo, ferried it there and arranged it's maintenance it would soon become a financial millstone without justifying it's existence on a regular basis and that probably would require a dedicated pilot. That might well require some extra training but even so not at all sure you'd need to be commercial licensed if the job was entirely in-house. After all, US cops fly Police helos on PPLs, don't they, on the basis that they are cops primarily and pilots second? CHIPS don't need taxi licences to drive cop cars with "customers" in them, do they?
I get the feeling that some of the posts above are rather long on knee-jerk and equally short on facts.
Last edited by Wageslave; 27th Dec 2015 at 21:39.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys, thank you for the input,I am only enquiring what the legality for me would be, the heli would not be used for ferrying passengers around, where I am working the are lots of snakes and scorpions and the company were just enquiring about having a helicopter on standby in case of a fellow worker getting bitten, I am an advanced qualified first aider, also a qualified mechanic and a 1200 ton crane operator.
Where we are working there are no helicopters available, we can get a fixed wing but a landing strip would be quite difficult to organise, yes my company pay me to operate a crane but to fly the aircraft would be at my own expense, in other words, if I was to fly someone to the hospital I would classed as not on site so I'd loose pay for every hour I wasn't there to operate my crane.
I'm still a bit confused because of the conflicting replies, hopefully someone can shed a bit more light on it for me please.
Where we are working there are no helicopters available, we can get a fixed wing but a landing strip would be quite difficult to organise, yes my company pay me to operate a crane but to fly the aircraft would be at my own expense, in other words, if I was to fly someone to the hospital I would classed as not on site so I'd loose pay for every hour I wasn't there to operate my crane.
I'm still a bit confused because of the conflicting replies, hopefully someone can shed a bit more light on it for me please.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: North
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear Wageslave...why bother with licensing at all? For gods sake....if he is carrying a patient, who is working for a commercial operation, the same comercial operation he is working for and being paid for, and this helicopter is tasked to the commercial operation for the sole task of emergency evacuation, how can this not be classified as a commercial tasking operation?
There is a bloody good reason we have CAAs and regulation and one of the main reasons is to prevent daft ideas surfacing that will be more of a danger than a safety precaution.
This is in every way a commercial operation and as such requires authorisation from the relevant authority. They will require a number of details including training details of the pilot intending to fly on their territory, details of how the aircraft is intended to be used and what procedures said company has in place including risk analysis as well as if the aircraft is suitable for the intended tasking. The local CAA is responsible for ensuring safe practises in their territory and will be taking their own risk assessment as to how safe it is to have an aircraft operating in desert and flying to their hospitals. The implications of an accident on their ground and the resources they require to deal with such an incident will come into play. Exactly why they will want to see and OMA and AOC. Your comparison with police is ridiculous and whilst maybe possible to fly in the US with a PPLH it is not in europe and i have no idea what the regulations are in Morocco but they have a number of agreements with EASA so I would be surprised if it is very different. Additionally the police have an AOC and are approved by the CAA to operate in this fashion having provided evidence of capability and training.
Again bottom line - this is a commercial operation. Check again the privileges of an EASA PPLH (I assume as he is from Ireland it is EASA) and ask yourself honestly if you think they allow this. It is direct tasking whilst at work. It is not the same as driving a truck for all sorts of reasons, not least of which because like it or not there is legislation that says it is not.
There is a bloody good reason we have CAAs and regulation and one of the main reasons is to prevent daft ideas surfacing that will be more of a danger than a safety precaution.
This is in every way a commercial operation and as such requires authorisation from the relevant authority. They will require a number of details including training details of the pilot intending to fly on their territory, details of how the aircraft is intended to be used and what procedures said company has in place including risk analysis as well as if the aircraft is suitable for the intended tasking. The local CAA is responsible for ensuring safe practises in their territory and will be taking their own risk assessment as to how safe it is to have an aircraft operating in desert and flying to their hospitals. The implications of an accident on their ground and the resources they require to deal with such an incident will come into play. Exactly why they will want to see and OMA and AOC. Your comparison with police is ridiculous and whilst maybe possible to fly in the US with a PPLH it is not in europe and i have no idea what the regulations are in Morocco but they have a number of agreements with EASA so I would be surprised if it is very different. Additionally the police have an AOC and are approved by the CAA to operate in this fashion having provided evidence of capability and training.
Again bottom line - this is a commercial operation. Check again the privileges of an EASA PPLH (I assume as he is from Ireland it is EASA) and ask yourself honestly if you think they allow this. It is direct tasking whilst at work. It is not the same as driving a truck for all sorts of reasons, not least of which because like it or not there is legislation that says it is not.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: North
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Border - contact the Moroccan CAA and ask direct. Also contact your own CAA as they are responsible for issuing your license. You will get an more accurate reply with the correct documentation and references. I dont know you or your experience, but I would also seriously consider whether you feel adequately trained. I have flown a fair bit in the desert environment and a lot can go wrong quickly and you may not know what you are letting yourself in for.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: the great white north
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"yes my company pay me to operate a crane but to fly the aircraft would be at my own expense, in other words, if I was to fly someone to the hospital I would classed as not on site so I'd loose pay for every hour I wasn't there to operate my crane."
really? they asked you to do this and then told you the above??
fp
really? they asked you to do this and then told you the above??
fp
Think about this:
You get a Bung Vertileap 2000 or whatever helicopter. Who's going to maintain it?
Day VFR only? Don't believe it for a moment.
Rupert gets bitten by a viper at 0200 in the morning because he couldn't see the snake in the sandstorm.
Guess what - everyone is going to want you to fire that baby up and fly Rupert to the hospital. NOW - if not sooner.
Night or Weather, how long you worked that day, how current you are will not count. The pressure that will be put upon you will be incredible.
Plus - if you roll it up in a ball - you will probably end up in jail.
That's my thoughts on the matter.
You get a Bung Vertileap 2000 or whatever helicopter. Who's going to maintain it?
Day VFR only? Don't believe it for a moment.
Rupert gets bitten by a viper at 0200 in the morning because he couldn't see the snake in the sandstorm.
Guess what - everyone is going to want you to fire that baby up and fly Rupert to the hospital. NOW - if not sooner.
Night or Weather, how long you worked that day, how current you are will not count. The pressure that will be put upon you will be incredible.
Plus - if you roll it up in a ball - you will probably end up in jail.
That's my thoughts on the matter.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
know of companies that operate their own machines, for business use / staff transport etc, so it's not public transport nor an AOC operation. So no need for a commercial licensed pilot either (provided of course the pilot is not being paid as a pilot!).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To the genuine guys who give me a reply to my genuine question I thank you, as for the piss takers, kindly keep you're smart answers to yourself thank you. I am a safe pilot and I don't take chance hence my question, I became a pilot 10 yrs ago and I am still learning, you never stop learning and you won't know the answer unless you ask the question, whether it's the answers I want to hear or not, I will always abide by the law.
For people's benefit I work 10 to 12 hours a day, we work days, not nights as was suggested and how I got my hours was because I work dam hard for what I've got and I am blessed to be in a good job that pays well and let's me fly how and when I want.
Thanks again for the genuine answers.
For people's benefit I work 10 to 12 hours a day, we work days, not nights as was suggested and how I got my hours was because I work dam hard for what I've got and I am blessed to be in a good job that pays well and let's me fly how and when I want.
Thanks again for the genuine answers.
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: Mesopotamos
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a big diff in flying one and operating one, the latter involves about 10 times more paperwork.
Sounds like you already got the best of both worlds anyway. If I were in your situation I wouldn't budge unless the company paid for the CPL and TR in their time.
Sounds like you already got the best of both worlds anyway. If I were in your situation I wouldn't budge unless the company paid for the CPL and TR in their time.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A genuine reply
I find it quite amusing 'Border' that you've come on here asking such a complicated question and then have a go at the regulars here when they give you their answers. If you are such a "safe pilot that doesn't take chances", why not ask the relevant authority for the true answers to all your questions? You would then avoid any of the potholes in the minefield that you are trying to cross.
You say that you will 'always abide by the law regarding the questions you ask, whether you like the answers or not'. I would suggest that here is the wrong place to ask those questions if you want answers .... however, if you want opinions, there is no better place than here. Remember though that opinions have no standing in a court of law when it all goes wrong.
p.s.
If you work 10-12 hrs a day, how do you get the time to fly 'how and when you want'?
When you say you get to fly 'how you want', as you emphasise yourself to be a safe pilot, what does that 'how you want' actually mean?
You say that you will 'always abide by the law regarding the questions you ask, whether you like the answers or not'. I would suggest that here is the wrong place to ask those questions if you want answers .... however, if you want opinions, there is no better place than here. Remember though that opinions have no standing in a court of law when it all goes wrong.
p.s.
If you work 10-12 hrs a day, how do you get the time to fly 'how and when you want'?
When you say you get to fly 'how you want', as you emphasise yourself to be a safe pilot, what does that 'how you want' actually mean?
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
26500,
Ok who is the fare paying pax? Is money being paid for the purpose of the flight?
If it's all provided FOC by the company, for it's own employees only, how can that be a commercial operation with respect to the flight?
how can this not be classified as a commercial tasking operation?
If it's all provided FOC by the company, for it's own employees only, how can that be a commercial operation with respect to the flight?
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: North
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok who is the fare paying pax? Is money being paid for the purpose of the flight?
If it's all provided FOC by the company, for it's own employees only, how can that be a commercial operation with respect to the flight?
If it's all provided FOC by the company, for it's own employees only, how can that be a commercial operation with respect to the flight?