Sad incident at Palamar today

[Helilife100]

Dreadful, dreadful, dreadful. I am sorry I clicked on the video, it chilled me to the bone. I shall go into work on monday and continue to do my very best to see that the million ways for a helicopter man to die doesn't visit our hangar. I know it is impossible but I am going to try anyway. Rest in peace lads.

[Hot and Hi]

Ground resonance?

That video shifts the question from what could have stopped the spinning and whether the first responders should have done anything differently, to the question how did it all start.

I must admit I have done landings worse than that and you yank it back up in the air and try again. Like the mishap pilot did. There are are few critical seconds missing from this video (the camera man instinctively took shelter when things went pear shaped) but maybe you more experienced pilots can explain what happened. Was it ground resonance?

[mickjoebill]

There are are few critical seconds missing from this video (the camera man instinctively took shelter when things went pear shaped)

There are a few frames at around 54 seconds showing it nose very high pointing 180 degrees from initial direction and moving backwards and decending.
From this angle it looks like the tail was probably really stuffed into the ground and tail rotor and gearbox departed.


Below aerial video of the aftermath, including the extraodinarily graphic circular inscription made on the concrete.


http://youtu.be/AhOpnyaZMuE

Mickjoebill

[mixing lever]

New Video link

Here is another angle on the actual accident leading to the spin.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c8d_1448123557
Sorry for the bad link.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by mixing lever

Here is another angle on the actual accident leading to the spin.

LiveLeak.com - Helicopter crash and spins out of control

Sorry for the bad link.

Thanks for the link, and

[TacomaSailor]

Local San Diego TV news reports that a witness helicopter pilot says the accident crew was trying to land on a dolly (news report called it a "portable landing pad"), which had no chocks or brakes to secure the wheels. The dolly was moving about as the accident AC tried to land on it. The dolly moved forward when the skids contacted it and the TR struck the ground.

The recorded TV broadcast showed the TV reporter interviewing the witness pilot who is based at Palomar and knew the two victims. He was very clear about what he saw with the unsecured dolly wheels.

I've seen no subsequent verification of the report during the last 24-hours but it was "BREAKING NEWS" at 11 PM Friday here in San Diego.

[[email protected]]

It's difficult to see any 'dolly' in that video but it is quite clear that rapid application of fore and aft cyclic was what caused the tail to impact and then pitch the aircraft nose down.

Definitely not ground resonance Ho and Hi!

Sad waste of lives.

Correction - On closer inspection you can see an orange object that is mostly obscured by the vehicle.

[vaqueroaero]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the question then becomes if he knew the cart was not chocked, he tried landing on it once why did he try it again? To save the aggravation of shutting down and then having start up again after it had been chocked?

Team 10: 'They didn't chock my cart' pilot said moments before helicopter spun out of control - 10News.com KGTV ABC10 San Diego

[Wageslave]

The hesitant and indecisive way he was hovering around the dolly smacks to me of someone outside his comfort zone and implies a dolly that was perhaps too small for the job and almost certainly too small for the pilot. Dollies have often seemed far smaller to me than either common sense or even basic safety might call for and always seemed an unnecessarily risky way of saving the effort of moving a helo. The risk of settling half on and half off always seemed an unnecessary hazard.

I found it all too easy to land a Squirrel too far aft on a small platform as you sit ahead of even the most forward element of ground contact and probably with the forward edge of the dolly barely in sight below and behind, let alone the rear end way way out of sight that the Stbd spring is the first to contact.

[B407]

Decided long ago after reviewing a number of accident reports in which someone died and/or the helo was destroyed from a botched cart/dolly landing that I simply wouldnt do it. This is a risk that is easily avoided. Ops manual now prohibits this.

[aa777888]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the question then becomes if he knew the cart was not chocked, he tried landing on it once why did he try it again? To save the aggravation of shutting down and then having start up again after it had been chocked?

Team 10: 'They didn't chock my cart' pilot said moments before helicopter spun out of control - 10News.com KGTV ABC10 San Diego

Craziness! If he was that determined, let the passenger out to chock it, or call the FBO and have somebody chock it. But land on it that way?

[audioguy]

Cart painted grey?

The Team 10 video showing the operation of the cart has me wondering why on earth the top of the cart is painted a similar colour to tarmac?

[Gordy]

Craziness! If he was that determined, let the passenger out to chock it, or call the FBO and have somebody chock it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing....note to self.....

[tistisnot]

Nail on the head there, Gordy ..... stopped to think, too ..... resistance to change, elf n safety, stop card - pah, perhaps not old and bold, but don't insult my ability nor years of experience ......

[Reely340]

Dollys seem to always have been rather dangerous landings spots,
another squirrel: in this case slipped off the platform and caught the platform with the right skid's rear snowskid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi9iKOW04w
ASN Aircraft incident 18-JUN-2008 Aérospatiale AS 350B2 Ecureuil HB-XVB

Then again, in that Swiss final accident report http://www.sust.admin.ch/pdfs/AV-berichte//2110.pdf on p.7
that dolly doesn't look inappropiately small, to me layman.
But that pilot clearly operated out of his comfort zone (as can be gleed from the fact that radio communication
with the tower changed from official english to local schwiezr-dütsch when he hesitantly acknowledged the request to land on the pad)

Btw. rather decisive ruling by swiss authority followed:
- starting with Oct. 15th 2008 it is illegal for airfield operators to offer publicly usable dollys
- effective same date said airfield operators (!) must ascertain that privately owner dollys be used only by pilots who can prove sufficient experience and training with helicopter platforms, by having been issued a respective permit by the swiss aviation authrority

[Agile]

Is it normal size for a dolly, look on the small size to me.



Second point why he didn`t give up to land on the dolly today?, after the first scare/miss I would land it on the ground and call it a day.
he is the CEO, get somebody to put it the hangar...

[Reely340]

From you pic it appears, that a squirrel driver does see neither the dolly nor his skids unless he leans into the bubble window should there be one, that is. Shouldn't there be a bottom view window, somewhere at the right fwd. corner of the pilot seat's base ?

[Fun Police]

utility equipped machines have a vertical reference window to the right of the pilot seat as well as mirrors mounted to the nose so the pilot can see the hook/skids and if adjusted properly, the load. the mirrors are very useful when landing on small pads or logs etc and i am sure many of us have landed on pads similar in size to that dolly without incident. but then again, they probably weren't moving around...

[Hot and Hi]

From the video you can see that the mishap helicopter didn't have skid mirrors.

It might have been easier to approach the dolly sideways, approaching it from the left. As opposed to approaching it head on, and overflying it (from the pilot's position) before touching down, hoping that it is still at the same place where you last saw it.

[chopjock]

It might have been easier to approach the dolly sideways, approaching it from the left.

Yes, and then "feeling" it down on the right and then the left skid gently, looks like he just dumped it down instead.