Acceptable risks : Night offshore flying
You can already have your flight data presented in the NVG eyepiece - it's not a new concept.
Is it ever going to be fully dark in the vicinity of a rig? You can use NVG in rain when IR sensors are next to useless and you can see lights through mist and light fog/cloud - not with IR.
VToss and the GA button are fine but why do that on instruments alone when you could use a visual/IF balance?
It is interesting to see the reluctance of the offshore crews to embrace technology that could make their lives safer.....
Is it ever going to be fully dark in the vicinity of a rig? You can use NVG in rain when IR sensors are next to useless and you can see lights through mist and light fog/cloud - not with IR.
VToss and the GA button are fine but why do that on instruments alone when you could use a visual/IF balance?
It is interesting to see the reluctance of the offshore crews to embrace technology that could make their lives safer.....
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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It is interesting to see the reluctance of the offshore crews to embrace technology that could make their lives safer.....
Is it not the over-reliance on the automation that has eroded flying skills in the Airline fleet?
Is the same happening in the offshore world?
We had quite a competent autopilot on the Mk3A Sea King (not the Mk3) but I still wouldn't fly without NVG over the sea unless I was IMC.
I don't do your job so I can't criticise but, perhaps because I am old-fashioned, I like looking out of the cockpit window rather than staring at screens
Is the same happening in the offshore world?
We had quite a competent autopilot on the Mk3A Sea King (not the Mk3) but I still wouldn't fly without NVG over the sea unless I was IMC.
I don't do your job so I can't criticise but, perhaps because I am old-fashioned, I like looking out of the cockpit window rather than staring at screens
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NVG's
I have done my fair share of unaided deck landings at night which can be interesting to say the least, especially when trying to transition from things that seem to moving in weird sequences (the bow wake on a pitching/heaving/rolling ship for one) to pitch black ocean and sky.
Having flown with NVG's the last 4 years on EMS, I believe that the benefit of aided flight under NVG's is the single biggest safety improvement made for night flight period. It would have to be a very very dark night over the ocean for the NVG's not to provide some benefit and as for approaching a vessel, you would have numerous advantages for arrival, departure and transition with just a modicum of common sense on vessel lighting conditions.
As one poster mentioned the regulatory authorities need to get up to speed on the benefits of modern NVG reliability and use. But that's our job I suppose. Once you use NVG's, you forever wonder what you were doing out there in the dark of night before, as you flip them up and realize that the perfectly lighted panorama before you simply disappears into the void of near nothingness. Note: general rule is not to fly aided where you would't fly unaided or without appropriate skills, equipment and proficiency.
Having flown with NVG's the last 4 years on EMS, I believe that the benefit of aided flight under NVG's is the single biggest safety improvement made for night flight period. It would have to be a very very dark night over the ocean for the NVG's not to provide some benefit and as for approaching a vessel, you would have numerous advantages for arrival, departure and transition with just a modicum of common sense on vessel lighting conditions.
As one poster mentioned the regulatory authorities need to get up to speed on the benefits of modern NVG reliability and use. But that's our job I suppose. Once you use NVG's, you forever wonder what you were doing out there in the dark of night before, as you flip them up and realize that the perfectly lighted panorama before you simply disappears into the void of near nothingness. Note: general rule is not to fly aided where you would't fly unaided or without appropriate skills, equipment and proficiency.
Last edited by crunchingnumbers; 14th Oct 2015 at 14:32.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I don't do your job so I can't criticise but, perhaps because I am old-fashioned, I like looking out of the cockpit window rather than staring at screens
You're not selling it very well Bravo73
However, I don't mind flying on instruments when I have to - done plenty of that - but in the context of NVFR I would much rather see the world through green tubes. A starlit night is quite a sight anyway but on NVG it really is spectacular.
However, I don't mind flying on instruments when I have to - done plenty of that - but in the context of NVFR I would much rather see the world through green tubes. A starlit night is quite a sight anyway but on NVG it really is spectacular.
Some Days....just how many are like that?
Funniest "Old Hand Advice" I was ever given on the North Sea by a leathery old Frenchman was "Never lose sight of the Water!", never minding I had not seen it since the Takeoff three hours before.
Those were the Glory Days of Single Pilot in a machine with only two axis SAS, monochrome radar, and Decca....no Rad Alts where Radar was on the MEL as being un-neccessary for flight.
Yes, we have progressed from those days.
Adding NVG's or something similar might just be a "Next Step".
Funniest "Old Hand Advice" I was ever given on the North Sea by a leathery old Frenchman was "Never lose sight of the Water!", never minding I had not seen it since the Takeoff three hours before.
Those were the Glory Days of Single Pilot in a machine with only two axis SAS, monochrome radar, and Decca....no Rad Alts where Radar was on the MEL as being un-neccessary for flight.
Yes, we have progressed from those days.
Adding NVG's or something similar might just be a "Next Step".
Old Guard vs New Technology
Some of the posts belie an attitude toward technology improvements that I've seen/listened to before. Anecdote that follows seems to apply, unfortunately, to some of these posts.
In Feb 1974 there was a UTTAS Briefing Visit to US Army units in Europe. The idea was to brief on the two competing UTTAS designs and get feedback. An Army Major gave the brief and then I and the Boeing Ch Pilot, Frank Duke, answered questions. First place we went to ( Wertheim? ) was illuminating. After the brief on the Army UTTAS requirements and the two designs, the audience erupted with questions. Most came from the CWO-3's and -4's the " old breed " with multiple Vietnam tours. There were many comments about the " new " design features they would be seeing, and the majority comment from the old guys was that they didn't need any of that " stuff ". So Frank and I spent a lot of time explaining why etc etc. It was obvious that none of the younger pilots got to speak. WOPA out in force, I guessed ( Warrant Officers Protective Assn. ). Sorry, Nick.
Anyhow, after the brief broke up, a very young WO-1 came up to Frank and I, looked over his shoulder, and said, " Look, I just want to pass along that I can use all the help I can get, and this new aircraft looks great ".
Kinda like your message, SAS?
In Feb 1974 there was a UTTAS Briefing Visit to US Army units in Europe. The idea was to brief on the two competing UTTAS designs and get feedback. An Army Major gave the brief and then I and the Boeing Ch Pilot, Frank Duke, answered questions. First place we went to ( Wertheim? ) was illuminating. After the brief on the Army UTTAS requirements and the two designs, the audience erupted with questions. Most came from the CWO-3's and -4's the " old breed " with multiple Vietnam tours. There were many comments about the " new " design features they would be seeing, and the majority comment from the old guys was that they didn't need any of that " stuff ". So Frank and I spent a lot of time explaining why etc etc. It was obvious that none of the younger pilots got to speak. WOPA out in force, I guessed ( Warrant Officers Protective Assn. ). Sorry, Nick.
Anyhow, after the brief broke up, a very young WO-1 came up to Frank and I, looked over his shoulder, and said, " Look, I just want to pass along that I can use all the help I can get, and this new aircraft looks great ".
Kinda like your message, SAS?
Last edited by JohnDixson; 14th Oct 2015 at 16:39. Reason: typo and date correction.
Famous words from a very British mouth dripping with sarcasm....."GPS....that Yank DOD Thing? We might have to buy it (the Nigerian CAA had mandated all aircraft be fitted with it to operate in Nigeria.) but when it goes U/S we will not repair it.".
A few trips with it and nothing more was heard about the Yank DOD and it did get repaired....but they never bought the Nav Data update while I was there.
A few trips with it and nothing more was heard about the Yank DOD and it did get repaired....but they never bought the Nav Data update while I was there.
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SAS, do we need "leathery old Frenchmen" and "very British mouth dripping with sarcasm" - how about "arrogant yanks who didn't fit AVAD and working CVR's"? It simply get's people going ..... just admit mistakes and move on.
And the onshore database will be for a few local airfields (which do not change often) and as yet we do not have nav databases with offshore information for GPS or TAWS / EGPWS - even though states publish information.
And the onshore database will be for a few local airfields (which do not change often) and as yet we do not have nav databases with offshore information for GPS or TAWS / EGPWS - even though states publish information.
Nothing ever changes ashore does it....and how legal is it to operate a piece of nav gear with and out of date database?
Seems a mistake made there by thinking otherwise no matter what passport you carry.
Seems a mistake made there by thinking otherwise no matter what passport you carry.
The database information is out there - if you are prepared to pay for it (not unreasonable really)
tistisnot - does that mean you could fly (as in bump into inadvertently) into a rig without any warnings because it isn't in your database?
tistisnot - does that mean you could fly (as in bump into inadvertently) into a rig without any warnings because it isn't in your database?
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SAS, out of date database, legal so long as you check coordinates with published data for route. And as many authorities have still not accepted EFBs without mounting and power, the paper is still carried ...... and so local paper approach plates are to hand ..... and we want them to sanction EFVS etc as well ...... light years!
There is always the accountants.
I used to pick up brand new S76As from the Ro-Ro and after they had been fitted to NS standard air test them and take them up to Aberdeen. We had a contract on Rhode Island which terminated and the S61 and 76 involved came to the UK.
The 76 was fitted with Loran instead of Decca so the Decca was installed---------- and the DME was removed? Why? There is no requirement for DME, ranges can be given by Decca and if the DME went wrong it would cost money to fix it.
About a month later the Norwegian CAA mandated DME as the range indicator so all the aircraft had to be fitted with DME including this 76 but a different instrument because they had flogged the old one.
And so it will be with NVGs.
They will have to be certified. It is for Public Transport use and the rules are different from SAR, police and medical services. It is the same with winching. There are a different set of rules regarding that after an S61 arrived on the back of a supply boat that it was winching off so now one has to have the capability to complete the immediate winching operation and fly away despite an engine failure.
This will cost money, lots of it. EASA or the CAA will want to fly and see it in operation in various levels of darkness before they will issue a clearance and somebody will have to pay. The helicopter companies wont so it will be up to the customer to assess whether it would be worth the expense.
Enter the accountants.
They will run a cost evaluation comparing money forked out and money saved and the result, because there are so few occurrences where NVGs would have helped, would mean that it would be rejected unless you can prove that people are going to die without it.
It follows that nobody is going to pay for the Certification so for Public Transport, North Sea, it just wont come.
I used to pick up brand new S76As from the Ro-Ro and after they had been fitted to NS standard air test them and take them up to Aberdeen. We had a contract on Rhode Island which terminated and the S61 and 76 involved came to the UK.
The 76 was fitted with Loran instead of Decca so the Decca was installed---------- and the DME was removed? Why? There is no requirement for DME, ranges can be given by Decca and if the DME went wrong it would cost money to fix it.
About a month later the Norwegian CAA mandated DME as the range indicator so all the aircraft had to be fitted with DME including this 76 but a different instrument because they had flogged the old one.
And so it will be with NVGs.
They will have to be certified. It is for Public Transport use and the rules are different from SAR, police and medical services. It is the same with winching. There are a different set of rules regarding that after an S61 arrived on the back of a supply boat that it was winching off so now one has to have the capability to complete the immediate winching operation and fly away despite an engine failure.
This will cost money, lots of it. EASA or the CAA will want to fly and see it in operation in various levels of darkness before they will issue a clearance and somebody will have to pay. The helicopter companies wont so it will be up to the customer to assess whether it would be worth the expense.
Enter the accountants.
They will run a cost evaluation comparing money forked out and money saved and the result, because there are so few occurrences where NVGs would have helped, would mean that it would be rejected unless you can prove that people are going to die without it.
It follows that nobody is going to pay for the Certification so for Public Transport, North Sea, it just wont come.
SASless, be fair. GPS was not available for civilian used until the mid eighties. The Nigerians may have used it but there was no guarantee that it would be available when you needed it. It wasn't until the turn of the century that Selective Availability was turned off and one could fix their position within the rotor disc. As an example; before then, Chinese airliners were tracking their airways with ADF and DME because they believed that the Americans could turn off the satellites in their area without warning. I had a GPS in my aircraft and their pilots would stare at it open-mouthed.
IIRC before LORAN, DECCA was the primary area navaid in Viet Nam so it must have been some use.
IIRC before LORAN, DECCA was the primary area navaid in Viet Nam so it must have been some use.
To be fair....you are pretty much spot on.
The unit we had was clearly marked "For VFR Use Only".
I trained on Decca in 1968 when in Army Flight School.
When I arrived in Vietnam where Decca had once been used....the only use we got out of the fit was the left over Plexiglass cover for the Decometers which made a handy note pad for writing down Artillery Fires Data using a Grease Pencil (wax pencil I think you call them).
All of the Decca equipment had been removed as it was pretty much useless in the configuration we had....the sticky tape on the scroll maps in the tropical heat held together about as well as a Pilot's Union at Contract time.
I recall flying around in Norwegian Waters where Flight Levels within the Ekofisk Field was predicated upon Height based upon their RadAlts which was a bit awkward as our aircraft had three BarAlts but no RadAlts.
Remember the Rwy 27 Decca Approach at Sumburgh?
Think about doing that at Night in bad weather....Single Pilot with no Autopilot....Map Change, Key Change, and Re-set the System...in some Snow and lots of static electricity to ensure you had to do at least a couple of re-sets.
Yes....we have progressed and I hope the current crop of Pilots continue to seek improvements that make their lives safer and easier.
The unit we had was clearly marked "For VFR Use Only".
I trained on Decca in 1968 when in Army Flight School.
When I arrived in Vietnam where Decca had once been used....the only use we got out of the fit was the left over Plexiglass cover for the Decometers which made a handy note pad for writing down Artillery Fires Data using a Grease Pencil (wax pencil I think you call them).
All of the Decca equipment had been removed as it was pretty much useless in the configuration we had....the sticky tape on the scroll maps in the tropical heat held together about as well as a Pilot's Union at Contract time.
I recall flying around in Norwegian Waters where Flight Levels within the Ekofisk Field was predicated upon Height based upon their RadAlts which was a bit awkward as our aircraft had three BarAlts but no RadAlts.
Remember the Rwy 27 Decca Approach at Sumburgh?
Think about doing that at Night in bad weather....Single Pilot with no Autopilot....Map Change, Key Change, and Re-set the System...in some Snow and lots of static electricity to ensure you had to do at least a couple of re-sets.
Yes....we have progressed and I hope the current crop of Pilots continue to seek improvements that make their lives safer and easier.