Unbelievable Bell 429 Uses Rogerson Kratos - Don't Buy!!
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Even Dick is not correct:
Quite simply Dick is smart enough to smell a scam and whether or not he can afford to pay is totally irrelevant.
Dick has a nice aviation toy box - not sure of the current inventory but is was the 109, a Bell 206, Cessna 208B, Cessna CJ3 and I think another lightie?
He is an astute but generous and proud Aussie, dedicated to rationalising aviation in Australia. He deserves his toys!!
Dick, if RK (or any avionics manufacturer) is unwilling to release their technical data to enable third party repairs, best not to buy their products. As you say, fifty grand is a very expensive 1/4 watt resistor!
I am fortunate. I can easily afford the rip off repair cost.
But to kowtow to such dishonest prices means I don't care about the industry I love.
But to kowtow to such dishonest prices means I don't care about the industry I love.
Dick has a nice aviation toy box - not sure of the current inventory but is was the 109, a Bell 206, Cessna 208B, Cessna CJ3 and I think another lightie?
He is an astute but generous and proud Aussie, dedicated to rationalising aviation in Australia. He deserves his toys!!
Dick, if RK (or any avionics manufacturer) is unwilling to release their technical data to enable third party repairs, best not to buy their products. As you say, fifty grand is a very expensive 1/4 watt resistor!
Thread Starter
Taily. I purchased the helicopter new from Agusta about 10 years ago .
No, I did not ask what repair costs would be or if service info would be available for every part of the helicopter when warranty expired. Why would I ? From my experience with owning many different brands over many years aircraft companies have always been ethical.
Even the S76 I flew around the world had reasonable overhaul costs for equipment. This is the first time I have experienced total dishonesty from a monopoly service organisation. Yes lots of other companies could have tried the same thing but they did not knowing that their good names would be destroyed.
And most likely they were run by business people who considered that being honest was important for long term survival in our industry.
The damage Rogerson Kratos will do to trust in our industry will be substantial. Capitalism requires ethics to operate successfully. And you don't need much to destroy that trust and have government over regulation- as we have in Aus.
No, I did not ask what repair costs would be or if service info would be available for every part of the helicopter when warranty expired. Why would I ? From my experience with owning many different brands over many years aircraft companies have always been ethical.
Even the S76 I flew around the world had reasonable overhaul costs for equipment. This is the first time I have experienced total dishonesty from a monopoly service organisation. Yes lots of other companies could have tried the same thing but they did not knowing that their good names would be destroyed.
And most likely they were run by business people who considered that being honest was important for long term survival in our industry.
The damage Rogerson Kratos will do to trust in our industry will be substantial. Capitalism requires ethics to operate successfully. And you don't need much to destroy that trust and have government over regulation- as we have in Aus.
Around the world S-76?
Dick,
I was amongst the group of folks watching you depart from OEM Bell, Fort Worth for your around the world trip in a 206, you did it also in an S-76? Just wonder'n. Otterrotor
I was amongst the group of folks watching you depart from OEM Bell, Fort Worth for your around the world trip in a 206, you did it also in an S-76? Just wonder'n. Otterrotor
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I had dinner last night with someone familiar with Cessna's process of replacing the Honeywell avionics suite in the Sovereign with Garmin. Approaching $100 million to do the switch. Some recovered by a lower ongoing cost of Garmin in each aircraft, but still a big chunk of change.
I wouldn't expect Bell to undertake that level of expense on the 429 unless they expect to sell a lot of units. Better luck would be having Bell lean on RK to do some more realistic support pricing.
Many Citations are on Pro Parts, fixing price per hour, and it is on Cessna to worry about the costs from Collins, Honeywell, Garmin etc., on spares.
I wouldn't expect Bell to undertake that level of expense on the 429 unless they expect to sell a lot of units. Better luck would be having Bell lean on RK to do some more realistic support pricing.
Many Citations are on Pro Parts, fixing price per hour, and it is on Cessna to worry about the costs from Collins, Honeywell, Garmin etc., on spares.
Thread Starter
Otter. Yes. Departed my front lawn in Sydney in 1994 and headed west this time
Got back in 95 via the middle East norway Iceland alaska Russia Japan
Great trip all at 500 agl. S76 Vh SHW. S/n 12
Now operated by St Johns Ambulance in New Zealand - see it on one of those border protection shows occasionally.
Got back in 95 via the middle East norway Iceland alaska Russia Japan
Great trip all at 500 agl. S76 Vh SHW. S/n 12
Now operated by St Johns Ambulance in New Zealand - see it on one of those border protection shows occasionally.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 18th Jul 2015 at 15:24. Reason: Propa inglish!
Dick,
Take two minutes to ask around the Bell 427/429/430 community (all graced with fine RK products
) and see how many have actually paid to have their boxes repaired (even when the ship was purchased used).
Ever wondered why Bell is #1 in support
?
Fly Safe, Always
Take two minutes to ask around the Bell 427/429/430 community (all graced with fine RK products
) and see how many have actually paid to have their boxes repaired (even when the ship was purchased used).Ever wondered why Bell is #1 in support
?Fly Safe, Always
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^^^^^ Please explain how you consider that justifies screwing the payers?
Are you suggesting that their entire repair/replacement components costs are heaped on the "unclean", whilst those who 's face fits, get what most would consider to be a "normal" level of service?
If Mr. Smith's R-K experience is an example of Bell's "No.1 service" I'm blessed that i'm never likely to have to afford it, or their "No. 2 service"
Are you suggesting that their entire repair/replacement components costs are heaped on the "unclean", whilst those who 's face fits, get what most would consider to be a "normal" level of service?
If Mr. Smith's R-K experience is an example of Bell's "No.1 service" I'm blessed that i'm never likely to have to afford it, or their "No. 2 service"
Thread Starter
I know Bell are reading this thread in the USA. Perhaps they can advise what the quote and service costs are for the RK equipment in the Bell products once they are out of warranty.
I bet stupendous- like thirty times the Garmin prices.
I bet stupendous- like thirty times the Garmin prices.
Exactly. while in warranty, nobody cares what the background costs are. But when out of warranty.....
I hear that AW, at best, offers about US$17k in core credit when going through them to RK, but RK are still the problem with the pricing.
I would imagine that Bell, like other OEM's, has signed a supply contract for a specific amount of aircraft units. Maybe 500 aircraft units (wild guess!).
So to change avionic suppliers before that is financially not adviseable as you still have to pay RK for the remainder of those 500 aircraft units.
And avionic OEM's don't want to develop a new unit or use for their unit if their aren't enough aircraft units sold to recoup their development costs.
All the Avionic OEM's have these costs, but some give low margin markets (like helicopters) a bit of a break and use money from higher margin markets (like airline/corporate) to offset.
Dick, no progress on changing out your screens to another OEM?
If I was purchasing a new helicopter these days, I'd be seriously looking at the OEM power by the hour deals so that the cost of these things is not my worry anymore. Although then you have to fly a certain number of hours/year, or at least, pay for a certain number of hours per year.
I hear that AW, at best, offers about US$17k in core credit when going through them to RK, but RK are still the problem with the pricing.
I would imagine that Bell, like other OEM's, has signed a supply contract for a specific amount of aircraft units. Maybe 500 aircraft units (wild guess!).
So to change avionic suppliers before that is financially not adviseable as you still have to pay RK for the remainder of those 500 aircraft units.
And avionic OEM's don't want to develop a new unit or use for their unit if their aren't enough aircraft units sold to recoup their development costs.
All the Avionic OEM's have these costs, but some give low margin markets (like helicopters) a bit of a break and use money from higher margin markets (like airline/corporate) to offset.
Dick, no progress on changing out your screens to another OEM?
If I was purchasing a new helicopter these days, I'd be seriously looking at the OEM power by the hour deals so that the cost of these things is not my worry anymore. Although then you have to fly a certain number of hours/year, or at least, pay for a certain number of hours per year.
Thread Starter
Just had a phone call from a friend who works for a company that had been looking at purchasing the Bell product. After not being able to get a logical answer about the Rogerson Kratos rip-off, they have now decided not to go ahead with purchasing a Bell helicopter.
I just wonder how many sales Bell are going to lose (how would they know?) before they will actually negotiate with Rogerson Kratos to get an ethical deal in relation to maintenance.
Ive also heard that the replacement equipment Agusta are now fitting in place of the Rogerson Kratos units is going to have a total overhaul cost of about $7,000. Now thats more than Garmin but still very reasonable.
Everyone who is reading this - make sure you do everything you can to warn people about the lack of ethics and the lack of reliability with Rogerson Kratos equipment. Do everything we can to make sure that Rogerson Kratos learns that being dishonest wont work in the long run.
I just wonder how many sales Bell are going to lose (how would they know?) before they will actually negotiate with Rogerson Kratos to get an ethical deal in relation to maintenance.
Ive also heard that the replacement equipment Agusta are now fitting in place of the Rogerson Kratos units is going to have a total overhaul cost of about $7,000. Now thats more than Garmin but still very reasonable.
Everyone who is reading this - make sure you do everything you can to warn people about the lack of ethics and the lack of reliability with Rogerson Kratos equipment. Do everything we can to make sure that Rogerson Kratos learns that being dishonest wont work in the long run.
Dick, the market is just too small when you look at IFR helicopters. Garmin refuse to certify the 500H for IFR and the 600 doesn't have a helicopter equivalent. The G1000H is restricted as to where you can get it as Garmin prefer to sell it to OEM's only.
The other option that I looked at for you was IFR certified, but their units would cost approx US$150k, PLUS installation. That is a lot of coin.
So the Chelton/Genesys option was the cheapest IFR option that is available as an RK replacement, unless you can find the Astronautics screens somewhere. The Astronautics screens are in the later 109E and all the 109S as a response to the issues with RK.
They are a plug and play replacement but you must replace all four at the same time, so plenty of dollars there too.
Would be interested to hear (PM if you like, or email) why the Genesys system isn't moving forward.
There just aren't that many avionic OEM's out there willing to throw money at a small market like IFR light twin helicopters! I don't know what the long term sustainable solution is, except to go back to steam gauges with an IFR moving map display?
The other option that I looked at for you was IFR certified, but their units would cost approx US$150k, PLUS installation. That is a lot of coin.
So the Chelton/Genesys option was the cheapest IFR option that is available as an RK replacement, unless you can find the Astronautics screens somewhere. The Astronautics screens are in the later 109E and all the 109S as a response to the issues with RK.
They are a plug and play replacement but you must replace all four at the same time, so plenty of dollars there too.
Would be interested to hear (PM if you like, or email) why the Genesys system isn't moving forward.
There just aren't that many avionic OEM's out there willing to throw money at a small market like IFR light twin helicopters! I don't know what the long term sustainable solution is, except to go back to steam gauges with an IFR moving map display?
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Dick, have you thought of, or considered, alternative repairers for your RK instrument?
Surely another company such as the one below can do the repair work and find a work-around to RK's "captive customer" design?
I have often carried our repairs in other fields of endeavour, that involves removing components that are made of unobtainium, and installing more-readily available, and less costly components of a different brand.
Of course, I understand with aviation, certification and CASA approval are over-arching parameters - but with a company that specialises in aviation instrument overhauls and repairs, they will surely know the work-arounds to avoid the total rorts such as RK indulge in.
This company does speak the soothing language all owners like to hear .. "Our team of highly experienced technicians perform quality repairs and overhauls, quickly and at a reasonable price" ..
They advertise FAA repair approval for both RK and Agusta.
Ahlers Aerospace - Repair Station
Surely another company such as the one below can do the repair work and find a work-around to RK's "captive customer" design?
I have often carried our repairs in other fields of endeavour, that involves removing components that are made of unobtainium, and installing more-readily available, and less costly components of a different brand.
Of course, I understand with aviation, certification and CASA approval are over-arching parameters - but with a company that specialises in aviation instrument overhauls and repairs, they will surely know the work-arounds to avoid the total rorts such as RK indulge in.
This company does speak the soothing language all owners like to hear .. "Our team of highly experienced technicians perform quality repairs and overhauls, quickly and at a reasonable price" ..
They advertise FAA repair approval for both RK and Agusta.
Ahlers Aerospace - Repair Station
Last edited by onetrack; 10th Sep 2015 at 02:59. Reason: fixed that spellink mistake ....
Firstly, I worry about a place that can't even spell Agusta!
This place, like most, can repair any mechanical gauges made by RK, but their are no EFIS units on the capability listing.
A search for EFIS repair stations for the 160E015 RK EFIS units, comes back with one and only one possibility. Rogerson Kratos themselves.
To be able to develop their own repairs, a repair station would need to reverse engineer their way into the unit to get be able to see how it works and how the software is written, then develop their own software for testing it on the bench and then get all that certified.
After all that, RK still won't recognise your repairs, even if they are FAA certified, so if that unit EVER went back to RK, they would either bin it, or charge for a complete overhaul and test of the unit.
This place, like most, can repair any mechanical gauges made by RK, but their are no EFIS units on the capability listing.
A search for EFIS repair stations for the 160E015 RK EFIS units, comes back with one and only one possibility. Rogerson Kratos themselves.
To be able to develop their own repairs, a repair station would need to reverse engineer their way into the unit to get be able to see how it works and how the software is written, then develop their own software for testing it on the bench and then get all that certified.
After all that, RK still won't recognise your repairs, even if they are FAA certified, so if that unit EVER went back to RK, they would either bin it, or charge for a complete overhaul and test of the unit.
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noooby, thanks for that info, I guess it's nothing less than what is expected from a manufacturer of a high-tech piece of proprietary equipment, who will do everything in their power to protect their "commercial investment" in their product.
The RK EFIS manual makes it clear that "unauthorised repairs will void the warranty and may impair the performance of the unit".
Of course, it's left unsaid that no-one else but RK is authorised to repair their EFIS units.
IMO, this attitude on RK's part is identical to the one assumed by car manufacturers that has led to repair shops in the U.S. protesting that the car manufacturers were deliberately withholding technical servicing information, thus ensuring that any repairs requiring access to fault codes, ability to fix those fault codes, and repairs involving replacement of crucial electronic components such as ECU's, meant that vehicles needing these repairs HAD to be sent to the manufacturers authorised dealer.
In many cases, such as smash repairs, this meant vastly increased cost to car owners as the damaged vehicle could not be fully repaired in the smash-repair shop - but had to be towed or transported, in mid-repair, to a dealer, to enable the electronics section to be repaired/replaced. The vehicle then had to be returned to the smash repair shop for repair completion.
Complaints by both owners and smaller repairers have led to the Motor Vehicle Owners Right to Repair Act - where manufacturers have been forced to release electronic repair information and technical information to anyone seeking it - information systems that the manufacturers had previously cried were "commercially sensitive" and "copyrighted", or subject to other patent or registered design rights.
The American courts appear to have decided in the direction of fairness, and to reduce a perceived monopoly bias by the car manufacturers, that was rooted more in sustaining high company and dealership profits, than any attempt to maintain vehicle safety levels, or to protect any expensive company R&D efforts and expense.
So many manufacturers today only use off-the-shelf componentry, anyway - and I note wryly that the RK EFIS unit uses a Motorola 68020 as its primary processor!
I seriously doubt Dicks raging will alter RK's position or attitude, purely because of the niche market involved in the RK EFIS, and the fact that high costs are merely seen as a constant factor in aviation, and the fact that the companies involved see no need for justification for their pricing regimes.
It's not helped by the fact that by far the majority of excessive aviation pricing is merely handed on to the customer or customers by intermediaries who do not have to bear the costs themselves.
Bottom line is, Dick - Heliflite have two fully-repaired RK EFIS units on hand, available on an exchange basis! Just take along a large jar of Vaseline when you organise the purchase!
RK 160E015-3 EFIS exchange units for sale
The RK EFIS manual makes it clear that "unauthorised repairs will void the warranty and may impair the performance of the unit".
Of course, it's left unsaid that no-one else but RK is authorised to repair their EFIS units.
IMO, this attitude on RK's part is identical to the one assumed by car manufacturers that has led to repair shops in the U.S. protesting that the car manufacturers were deliberately withholding technical servicing information, thus ensuring that any repairs requiring access to fault codes, ability to fix those fault codes, and repairs involving replacement of crucial electronic components such as ECU's, meant that vehicles needing these repairs HAD to be sent to the manufacturers authorised dealer.
In many cases, such as smash repairs, this meant vastly increased cost to car owners as the damaged vehicle could not be fully repaired in the smash-repair shop - but had to be towed or transported, in mid-repair, to a dealer, to enable the electronics section to be repaired/replaced. The vehicle then had to be returned to the smash repair shop for repair completion.
Complaints by both owners and smaller repairers have led to the Motor Vehicle Owners Right to Repair Act - where manufacturers have been forced to release electronic repair information and technical information to anyone seeking it - information systems that the manufacturers had previously cried were "commercially sensitive" and "copyrighted", or subject to other patent or registered design rights.
The American courts appear to have decided in the direction of fairness, and to reduce a perceived monopoly bias by the car manufacturers, that was rooted more in sustaining high company and dealership profits, than any attempt to maintain vehicle safety levels, or to protect any expensive company R&D efforts and expense.
So many manufacturers today only use off-the-shelf componentry, anyway - and I note wryly that the RK EFIS unit uses a Motorola 68020 as its primary processor!
I seriously doubt Dicks raging will alter RK's position or attitude, purely because of the niche market involved in the RK EFIS, and the fact that high costs are merely seen as a constant factor in aviation, and the fact that the companies involved see no need for justification for their pricing regimes.
It's not helped by the fact that by far the majority of excessive aviation pricing is merely handed on to the customer or customers by intermediaries who do not have to bear the costs themselves.
Bottom line is, Dick - Heliflite have two fully-repaired RK EFIS units on hand, available on an exchange basis! Just take along a large jar of Vaseline when you organise the purchase!
RK 160E015-3 EFIS exchange units for sale
