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UK NPAS - The Decline

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UK NPAS - The Decline

Old 4th Jun 2016, 22:24
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds likely. Everything needs to be paid for.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 09:06
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
Don't know where you got that from MG, but it smells of absolute BS.
From the horse's mouth. So to speak.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 09:38
  #203 (permalink)  

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I'm really surprised you've believed this downlink story.
Perhaps you can ask the 'horse' who it actually was that said no. Was it the TFO or control room dispatcher or the control room supervisor? A date would be handy and whoever the horse is would easily be able to tell you that.

I would be more than happy to get the truth out of this as despite what anyone might think of NPAS, those of us at the coal face are still driven to provide an effective service to the officers on the ground. After all, let no one forget that TFO's were once those officers on the ground and maybe one day will be again. Making up stories is well out of order.


Right then; why did they reply to the request or does the 'airwave package' come as standard

I wonder if along with the 'downlink package' & 'airwave package' there is also a 'camera package', 'Thermal package', 'Mapping package', 'nitesun package', 'sky shout package', 'casevac package' etc.

Maybe when it comes to the beginning of the financial year, each force has to decide between the SE, HSE, or Sport variant of their agreement. Perhaps in future they could even ask for the ac to be adblue'd to keep the costs down further


You must have heard that the truth is stranger than fiction, there is no need for the fiction
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 10:08
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if along with the 'downlink package' & 'airwave package' there is also a 'camera package', 'Thermal package', 'Mapping package', 'nitesun package', 'sky shout package', 'casevac package' etc
Sid, is there not an additional cost to pay for the downlink? The other items you mention are fixed costs, unless you want to consider the marginal additional fuel burn to run the Nitesun.

The extra data, lots of it, is charged by the network operator when images are sent over Airwave. Is the downlink data free for everyone?
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 12:54
  #205 (permalink)  

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airpolice;

Sid, is there not an additional cost to pay for the downlink? The other items you mention are fixed costs, unless you want to consider the marginal additional fuel burn to run the Nitesun.

The extra data, lots of it, is charged by the network operator when images are sent over Airwave. Is the downlink data free for everyone?
That's how it works is it!



Enterprise Control Systems, ECS UK

2014-11-23 - The Benefits of a Sovereign Data Network

Introduction
A comparison is made of the use of the relative merits of using a dedicated COFDM data network such as that available from ECS versus the use of 3G or 4G from a Mobile telephone network.

At first sight the use of 3G/4G from a mobile service provider has the following advantages:-

Coverage Area. COFDM has a finite range capability, defined by the frequency of the equipment, data-rate, antenna types and, dependent on radio line of sight. Use of the Mobile Telephone Network is only limited by areas of coverage of the mobile network.
Initial Price. COFDM has a much higher initial equipment price then a system using the Mobile Telephone Network
Frequency Allocation. COFDM requires its own dedicated band plan

However the advantages of COFDM include:-

Infrastructure Independence. COFDM is infrastructure independent. Video footage via the Mobile Telephone Network is reliant on 3rd party infrastructure
Security. Mobile technology is connected to Internet Protocol networks; as such, any encryptionhosted on mobile-connected equipment is subject to hacking threats.
Denial of Service. Denial of Service attacks of the mobile network .
Ongoing Costs. COFDM is free to transmit. Mobile Network Providers will charge for data usage.
(e.g. A single SD picture at 5.5 Mbps is 2.5GB/hr)
Image Quality. The data-rate of 3G and 4G can never be guaranteed; data-rate reduces with cell phone velocity and the number of cell phones in the local vicinity. Loop testing and variable compression techniques are used to determine maximum data-rate. In high mobile phone usage areas, the data-rate may reduce below that considered acceptable for surveillance imagery. In extreme cases, the mobile network may crash. Surveillance operations are normally required in areas of high mobile phone usage.
COFDM is fixed data-rate and fixed image quality without this limitation
Deployment. 3G does not provide sufficient data-rate at helicopter operational speeds to support video, so this capability is limited to 4G coverage areas
Consistency of Performance. Performance of a video over 3G/4G system is dependent upon data-rate available. Data-rate is affected by the number of other phone uses in the vicinity. The use of the network can never be known. As such, performance of a video over 3G/4G solution is not consistent.
Operational performance cannot be predicted reliably. COFDM has defined range with consistent performance
Certification. No EASA/FAA approved equipment exists for transmitting imagery via the mobile telephone network
Regulation. ETSI legally restricts the usage of SIM cards to ground level. This is mobile phone registration and handover (AT command set) between the mobile phone and Base Station Transceiver (BST) being at the same level. The mobile phone being at higher level may cause the mobile network to crash due to the BST incorrectly allocating timing arc and sector information due to the angle between phone and BST. Note in commercial aviation, mobile phones may be switched on above 3000 m but must be prevented to communicate directly to the BST, instead via an on-board pico-cell satellite backhaul.

Summary


History has shown that in the event of a 7/7 or 9/11 type attack one of the first infrastructures that is completely overloaded is that of the mobile telephone infrastructure. An independent COFDM network, particularly in the guise of air to ground video and data links provides the most secure and independent way of delivering crucial C2I situational awareness.
You'll be saying next that there is a charge for the DVD's that the vids/pics are burnt onto
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 17:16
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't it just possible that something along those lines was said but they meant something along the lines of: "The client force has not yet bought the equipment required to receive our downlink which, having originally been owned by another force, has downlink equipment which is incompatible with your receiving equipment."?

I'm not an NPAS apologist, or even a TFO, just guessing.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 17:29
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Internal billing

Sid, I asked because your comments suggest that you know about such things.

As for DVD costs, someone has to pay for them. Are NPAS soaking it up in the general cost of providing air support to the Police forces, or do they make a charge for compiling and forwarding the media after acquiring images?

Surely that's part of what some chiefs complained would happen, where their budget was going to get hit for NPAS Providing services that not everyone needs, but everyone pays for.



Did this story from 2010 result in any big changes?

Police officers are being ordered to send texts rather than speak on their radios because of the sums charged by the firm that owns the police communications network.
While chief constables face unprecedented cutbacks, the company that operates the system on which all the emergency services communicate has seen a massive rise in profits. Last year Airwave Solutions’ profit margin outstripped even that of mobile-phone giant Vodafone.
Airwave’s pre-tax profit was £170 million, a 26 per cent increase on the previous 12 months. It represents an eye-watering return of 45 per cent on the company’s £380 million turnover.
The company’s charges are said to be putting a severe strain on police budgets. Officers in one rural force have been told that a penalty charge of up to £2 a second is imposed as soon as the number of calls they make goes over a pre-arranged limit.
According to Dorset Police Federation chairman Clive Chamberlain, the punitive levy has led to a series of cost-cutting measures. ‘Airwave is a very expensive system which was forced upon the police service by the Government,’ he said.
‘It was imperative to have a secure communications system. But it has come at a very high price. The advice we’re being given from the top is to send texts as much as possible because it’s going to cost a lot less money.
‘There have been a series of briefings at which a senior officer has said it costs Dorset £2 a second whenever we go over the limit. We are being told that texting more has the potential to save tens of thousands of pounds because it costs only 4p to send 1,000 texts.’
Dorset Police declined to confirm or deny the £2-a-second figure. A spokesman said: ‘The monthly charges include a fixed price for provision of the service, including a set volume of traffic, together with a variable charge that applies if the force exceeds its set monthly traffic volume.’
Airwave refused to discuss the details of its charging structure but claimed the £2-a-second calculation was ‘misleading and inaccurate’. However, a spokesman said: ‘We do charge a usage tariff, but only for excess usage over agreed contracted levels.’
No national figures are collated for the cost of Airwave to the police service as a whole, according to the Home Office. But The Mail on Sunday has discovered that Dorset’s bill last year was £612,000, Greater Manchester’s £699,000 and North Wales’s £619,000.
The country’s biggest force, the Metropolitan Police, and a number of others said they could not reveal how much they paid because the information was commercially sensitive.
Now, in an attempt to reduce the spiralling cost, officers from forces all over Britain are being trained how to text because it is cheaper.
It means police out on patrol or responding to an incident are under orders to keep in touch with their colleagues in the control room not by talking to them but by pressing buttons.
Graphic
Last night former police commanders condemned the move and said it could compromise the safety of front-line officers and the public. The network is used by every police force, fire brigade and ambulance trust in the country.
Police officers have been given a set of 16 numerical codes that correspond to buttons on their handset. By inputting the correct combination of digits, they can report their location and whether they are issuing a warrant, making an arrest, on a meal break or returning to base. The information is automatically fed into the control room computer.
In an emergency, they can summon help in the normal way. But if they are involved in a routine procedure, they have been told to use the messaging facility instead.
An investigation by The Mail on Sunday found that forces across Britain have sent their staff on texting training courses. They include North Wales, Nottinghamshire, Cheshire, North Yorkshire, Kent, Hertfordshire, Durham, Hampshire, Norfolk, Dorset and Dyfed-Powys.
But critics say ‘status messaging’, as it is known, is a time-wasting procedure that will distract officers and make them less alert to potential danger.
Former Scotland Yard Flying Squad commander John O’Connor said: ‘It is going to impact on their safety and operational efficiency. How can they be sure their text is going to be picked up so colleagues know their location? If you are talking to a colleague, they know exactly where you are and what you’re doing.
‘This is another layer of red tape which is being imposed in order to save an unquantifiable amount of money. Chief constables should stand up and say they are not going to accept it.’
Former Metropolitan Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick said: ‘If officers are trying to push buttons they won’t be looking to see what is going on around them and to that extent it’s risky.
‘When they were introducing the system, it took a large chunk of the Met’s budget and there were all sorts of problems. At the beginning it didn’t even work inside buildings and we had to put in extra transmitters which involved a lot of extra cost.
‘I don’t remember being given a choice by the Home Office. We were told, “This is the system you are getting.”’
Most police forces have contracts with Airwave based on expected usage. But if officers make more calls than allowed for in the agreement, a higher tariff is applied.
Police sources say the unpredictable nature of their work means some forces can easily exceed their limit, involving them in huge extra expense.
One officer said: ‘The force’s financial controller will make a usage prediction. But then there’s a big incident and we’re radioing in all the time. That’s when the problems start.’


Read more: Police told to send text messages because it is too expensive to speak on their radios | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

As for the original suggestion of cops on the ground being denied the downlink, it should not be outwith the scope of a NPAS manager to find how many jobs they have attended in Appleby recently and listen to the comms from each of them. That will identify the source and truth of the matter. It would also of course allow the whole thing to be "disappeared" if it's true.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 20:12
  #208 (permalink)  

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Just to get things straight, airpolice's only connection to anything related to the police and aviation is to have once been an RAF policeman and now has an NPPL.

To come on the various threads masquerading as someone involved with police aviation is misleading at best.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 20:14
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Sid, are you a pilot?
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 20:25
  #210 (permalink)  

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I had an r/c quadcopter for Christmas, does that count?
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 21:10
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Just to get things straight, airpolice's only connection to anything related to the police and aviation is to have once been an RAF policeman and now has an NPPL.

To come on the various threads masquerading as someone involved with police aviation is misleading at best.
That's gonna get a few laughs in some crew rooms tonight.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 21:32
  #212 (permalink)  

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I doubt it, the only crew rooms you frequent close at four on a Sunday afternoon.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 22:20
  #213 (permalink)  

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Confirmed, no one in any crew room open this time on a Sunday knows you, therefore no laughter ! There may however be a few RAF guardrooms that might!

And although you haven't said it here yet, it is also confirmed that you have never been a Police pilot.
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 09:46
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Rotate too late:
Has the story been deleted?
No, it's just Sid doing what he does. On running out of facts, he makes some up and then plays the man not the ball.

I have to wonder how he can ask around to find out who knows me, but can't find out about the Appleby job.
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 09:59
  #215 (permalink)  

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I have deleted nothing!
However I do notice that Rotate Too Late's post quoted by air police has been.

As far as playing the man; who is air police, that prolific poster on police aviation? Never a (civi) police officer and never a police pilot!

By the way, who said that I haven't found anything out about the Appleby job?
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 10:06
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I said it, on the basis that you are not in the habit of keeping stuff quiet once you find it.

Perhaps what you (may or may not) have found out fits MG's version rather than yours?

I have not posted on here any claim to have been a Cop or a Police Pilot.

Who is Silsoe Sid, that prolific poster on police aviation?
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 10:19
  #217 (permalink)  

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I said it, on the basis that you are not in the habit of keeping stuff quiet once you find it.

Perhaps what you (may or may not) have found out fits MG's version rather than yours?
Need to know, and you don't.
Read my earlier posts.

I have not posted on here any claim to have been a Cop or a Police Pilot.
I haven't said that you have, in fact quite the contrary.

Who is Silsoe Sid, that prolific poster on police aviation?
My point proved
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 10:31
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Yeah, just to be clear, I deleted the question because I was being a retard and did not find the story on first reading. Apologies for any confusion caused....
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 10:37
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
I have not posted on here any claim to have been a Cop or a Police Pilot.
I haven't said that you have, in fact quite the contrary.
I didn't say that you did.
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 10:40
  #220 (permalink)  

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I didn't say that you said that I said you did.
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