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Save the UK Police Air Support - e-petition

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Save the UK Police Air Support - e-petition

Old 1st Mar 2015, 13:23
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As Mandy Rice one famously said during the Profumo Affair.....

Well he would say that wouldn't he.

Quite a few non pilot posters on here with vested interests.

However the bean counters and accountants see the true picture of around only
25% of all police air ops being justified as cost effective.

The modern UK police force now fast tracks graduate entrants to Inspector in three years so avoiding the old plod to Sweeney model.

With police budgets being cut to the bone there has to be better ways to spend the budget.

Does anyone ever do a debrief on wasted operations?

Tigerfish....I am old enough to remember Julian Verity starting the South Wales police ops from Cardiff Wales airport and building the hangar at Tremorfa while at the same time my aircraft was serviced by Robertson's at Lulsgate in the days of G-OLLY.

As for your ridiculous remark regarding the relationship between muggings and air ops I assume you have never seen a street assault. All over in seconds and culprits long gone before plod arrives.

The best way of fighting street crime is the town and city camera network not a big expensive toy.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 13:34
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Fact: Once the helicopter is in the air for job 1 it will 8 times out of 10 pick up another couple of jobs with a far better chance of a good result because its so far much further ahead of the drag curve.

You gotta be in it to win it!
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:06
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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"the bean counters and accountants see the true picture of around only
25% of all police air ops being justified as cost effective"

Utter [email protected]@x
The bean counters and accountants know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:40
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Yawn

RP,

May i ask your background in UK air policing?

Rgds

CM
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:49
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Im just about to go on holiday, so i will accept the ban from the moderators. I feel that i speak for the majority. This isnt emotional, it is deliberate and thought out.

RP, you really are a trolling thick ********
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:50
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That was auto censored. I said d i c k head
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:50
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I have spent a fortune paying for it over decades

I pay for my own flying and never want to waste money.

Do you pay for your flying?

If not you are just the driver or passenger who takes a free ride sanctioned by an accountant.

The numbers on the petition so far echo my views that the current police model reflects cutbacks across the public purse.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:53
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In my opinion unless you have prior experience you shouldn't really opine on stuff you have no experience about.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:56
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Question

RP,

So am i correct in thinking that you have no experience working at an Air Support Unit either as a Pilot or Observer?

Jayteeto, understand your frustrations but to all of the longstanding posters here, lets keep it calm and considered.

The right questions posed will generate the necessary answers..

CM
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:57
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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So is this a petition from turkeys banning Christmas?

It is easy to wade through the posts and discover a lot from observers who don't want to go back on the beat.

I have 35 years of piloting in my log book.

What about you Colonel M?
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 14:59
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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?

RP,

is that an answer to your ASU experience or a reference to an earlier unconnected post?,

I have many years working in the Private and public aviation sector, not as a pilot i hasten to add but also have a keen interest in the NPAS transition due to my Public sector role.....So back to my original question,have you worked at an Air Support Unit as a Pilot.....or as an observer.. ?



CM
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 15:06
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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UK and Australian taxpayer and pilot.

Not even 500 signatures so far and 100k needed to win.

I doubt this will even make 2k.

What do you fly P1 Colonal?

I suspect a Mk1desk?

Brilliantstuff

Showing your inexperience regarding west Wales and Haverfordwest.

I go back to the early days of Julian Verity at Cardiff Wales with his one green and red B206 in the 1980's when you were still probably in junior school.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 15:15
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RP,


My P1 is a ford.....and a desk...not a pilot as i have previously stated but with a few thousand hours in the passenger seat,ground handler, refueller etc (prior to my public sector role)..oh and i'm not an observer for any ASU, never have been, never would do

My question is have you any experience flying for any of the ASU's or have you been an observer for them?, obviously as a fixed wing pilot your options are limited unless you also have a rotary ATPL?

Absolutely agree that you have an opinion on how tax money should be spent but the answer to my ASU question will allow me and others to understand whether you have formed your opinion from doing the job....or from public perception..(as a taxpayer).

regards

CM

Last edited by Colonal Mustard; 1st Mar 2015 at 15:27.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 15:27
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My experience dates back to the days when freelance contract air support was bought in from the likes of Veritair back in the 1980's.

One pilot,Julian Verity,in a Jetranger plus a copper with a map alongside covering half of Wales.

Only used when there was a proper requirement and sanctioned from above.

Now the air support as they are called lift for stupid events like the two guys delaying a train by a few minutes

Last edited by Romeopapa; 1st Mar 2015 at 15:38.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 15:29
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Thank you

RP,

Many thanks, that makes it clearer for me, and others undoutedly (public perception)

CM
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 15:40
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Do I pay for my flying? Her Majesty got me the helicopter hours, but my 35000 got me the ATPL Aeroplanes. I do a bit of 152 flying for fun.
Nearly 8000 in my log book, 3000 of them EC135. Quite a few of them counter terrorism and police.
I am an accountants whipping boy? Of course I am, any professional pilot is. Doesnt mean that I dont know what I am talking about.
Where you are REALLY really wrong is the deterrent effect of an aircraft. It cant be proved of course, but those of us experienced KNOW it works. Sadly we have nothing but knowledge to back it up.
What you dont realise, is that we agree with many of your points. Money does have to be saved, bases do have to be cut, streamlining is necessary, we HAVE to modernise.
Our argument is that it has been done using lies, deception and simply incorrectly. The wrong decisions have often been made, some excellent decisions as well. The good bad ratio hasnt been good enough.
How could i sum it up........

The bosses should say: the service IS reduced, some areas WILL have poor coverage. Unfortunately we are so skint this is the only option, so 'suck it up'
Not the, everything is wonderful and improved bull.
Just tell the truth.......
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 16:14
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Nice post JT

Like the curates egg it is good in parts but I guess we sing from the same hymn sheet.

I have to disagree with one point you make.

Fun and a 152 don't belong together.

Do you mean the freedom of not being told where to go?

TC seems to also see the future.

As for a helicopter being a deterrent....the entire US military could not achieve that on Merseyside
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 16:36
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Romeopapa ............. I am trying to place you ? However yes you are quite correct, we gave S.Wales, Dyfed and Gwent great value for money. The simplicity of the Bell 206 served them well. Remember the Bell 206 that Dyfed subsequently bought themselves ? Pity the whole Police world got so complicated and expensive.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 16:37
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jt2 - Absolutely spot on. Admit that the measures are to save money, look at where there is truly a need and have the gumption to say what the new service really is.

The idea of national air support is a good one and should save money simply by having procurement and management provided centrally.

Central management should have meant a better use of air support but from what I can see it has meant quite the reverse with units seeming to fly regardless of the efficacy of doing so. One SMT, rather than 30 inspectors and sergeants, should have provided savings through more intelligent use of air support.

There is undoubtedly a need to save money and, I would argue, that RP is correct in some of what he says. A lot of the flying done by units throughout the UK seems wasteful and unnecessary and - contrary to what Sky Sports said - anyone with a bit of sense and five minutes in the job could tell you that it was a pointless waste of time and money before lifting.

I have read a great deal about the central control centre but fail to see why it's needed. A regional radio channel monitored by professionals with understanding of what is a reasonable request and with real tactical decision making responsibility, which was available to all local forces would surely see appropriate and timely response.

Technology and CCTV has meant that the detection of urban crime and the deterrent effect previously supplied by air support is now not required to the same extent as it was. TF is right about what ASUs did in the 80s and 90s - and he can be rightly proud of what was achieved - but they are simply not required to such a degree in that role any longer.

There need to be fewer bases, there need to be fewer aircraft, there needs to be joined up thinking in fleet composition and inter-agency co-operation. Perhaps fewer aircraft and fewer bases really can be more effective and efficient but not if the remaining bases are simply doing what has been done for twenty or thirty years.

I'm not involved in police aviation and I acknowledge that it is always simple to run other people's business for them but it would appear to me that decisions were originally made in isolation without the benefit of understanding and then several years have been spent pretending that all was well while all the middle and lower level yes men confirmed that for the top brass.

Covering 90% of the population poorly is not better than covering 70% well and being honest about it. It seems to me that to chop coverage in rural areas simply because few people live there - which is precisely what makes air support effective in many cases - is muddle-headed. Then to pretend that this is somehow providing a better service is just plain wrong.

Just my two-pennyworth.
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Old 1st Mar 2015, 17:07
  #60 (permalink)  
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RP

You still keep throwing these percentage figures round. 75% here, 25% there.
Please please please can you tell us where you got them? To be taken even remotely seriously you need to post links to the reports / studies that you got them from.

Or, is it answer B, you have bugger all experience of police air support, you are anti-police because they once gave you a speeding ticket and you are making up all your 'facts and figures' because you have a chip on your shoulder?
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