Save the UK Police Air Support - e-petition
Thread Starter
Waste of Money debate
Hopefully this will put the 'waste of money' debate to bed. But, it will need an honest answer from the doubters.
My unit costs @£1.3M per year to run.
In 2014 we had 115 misper searches.
Of those, 6 or 7 were very close to death when we found them in isolated locations.
This works out at £185,000 per life saved.
Now, RomeoPapa, be honest with me, if one of your relatives were captured by ISIS and appeared in a video in an orange jumpsuit, kneeling in the desert, would you pay a £185,000 ransom to save their life?
Or would it be a waste of money?
Assuming you say yes, and we agree that £185,000 to save a life is value for money, then everything else an air support unit does for the rest of the year is surely fantastic value for money, because the cost has been allocated to the lives saved.
Looking for a cat up a tree becomes free and is therefore value for money!
Just goes to show that as a bean counter you can prove and justify everything you want to.
My unit costs @£1.3M per year to run.
In 2014 we had 115 misper searches.
Of those, 6 or 7 were very close to death when we found them in isolated locations.
This works out at £185,000 per life saved.
Now, RomeoPapa, be honest with me, if one of your relatives were captured by ISIS and appeared in a video in an orange jumpsuit, kneeling in the desert, would you pay a £185,000 ransom to save their life?
Or would it be a waste of money?
Assuming you say yes, and we agree that £185,000 to save a life is value for money, then everything else an air support unit does for the rest of the year is surely fantastic value for money, because the cost has been allocated to the lives saved.
Looking for a cat up a tree becomes free and is therefore value for money!
Just goes to show that as a bean counter you can prove and justify everything you want to.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
RP;
The like of Silso can not defend the wasted time and money such as the railway incident I quoted.
The like of Silso can not defend the wasted time and money such as the railway incident I quoted.
Sorry RP, I didn't realise I had to justify every police helicopter deployment to you, however, as you ask;
I take it this is the Sidcup railway incident you refer to;
'7 police cars and vans and a helicopter' called to Sidcup station after man prevents train from leaving (From This Is Local London)
If you would care to read the detail, there were two men involved, one of which ran along the railway line to escape the police.
A police spokesman said: "We were called to Sidcup railway station just after 10pm after a report of a man preventing a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.
"BTP officers attended, alongside colleagues from the Metropolitan Police Service, and stopped two men close to the station.
Eyewitness - "I believe that one of them possibly ran off down the track towards Albany Park. The police were checking between the houses in Faraday and the chopper was over Abbeyhill park."
"BTP officers attended, alongside colleagues from the Metropolitan Police Service, and stopped two men close to the station.
Eyewitness - "I believe that one of them possibly ran off down the track towards Albany Park. The police were checking between the houses in Faraday and the chopper was over Abbeyhill park."
Wasn't it earlier said on a similar thread that the main priority for air support is saving life .....
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
In regards to RP, anyone else having memories of Ye Olde Pilot?
MaxR,
Thank you for your comments and for what its worth I think your post was one of the most accurate so far.
I agree that in this current financial crisis, just about every reasonably minded person would accept that there had to be savings, and that some units and bases might have to go.
But instead of looking at it carefully over a period of time, & gathering evidence, the NPAS circus announced the demise of several units even before they took over. To make matters worse, the ones announced as being cut, were often some of the best like Merseyside.
Then came the bare faced lies. "To save money? - No - you've got it all wrong, this is being done to make it more efficient".
"Look at this way, - before NPAS you only had one aircraft, now you can call on four" etc etc. Strictly true in theory, but not in operational practice.
If they hadn't tried to treat us all like dummies the response would have been different. Remember, - I said we all knew that there would have to be some savings.
I've said it before, but I have been involved in the development of UK Police Aviation since 1984. I have always supported the concept of Regional and National governance. That was the only true way to become more efficient and to save monies. BUT NPAS HAD ONLY ONE PURPOSE! That being to cut millions of pounds sterling from the budget and to hell with efficiency!
Their Mantra was, - Only a Senior officer should be able to call for assistance from Air Support,
What does the Bobby on the beat up to his neck in Sh** know about it anyway?
TF
Thank you for your comments and for what its worth I think your post was one of the most accurate so far.
I agree that in this current financial crisis, just about every reasonably minded person would accept that there had to be savings, and that some units and bases might have to go.
But instead of looking at it carefully over a period of time, & gathering evidence, the NPAS circus announced the demise of several units even before they took over. To make matters worse, the ones announced as being cut, were often some of the best like Merseyside.
Then came the bare faced lies. "To save money? - No - you've got it all wrong, this is being done to make it more efficient".
"Look at this way, - before NPAS you only had one aircraft, now you can call on four" etc etc. Strictly true in theory, but not in operational practice.
If they hadn't tried to treat us all like dummies the response would have been different. Remember, - I said we all knew that there would have to be some savings.
I've said it before, but I have been involved in the development of UK Police Aviation since 1984. I have always supported the concept of Regional and National governance. That was the only true way to become more efficient and to save monies. BUT NPAS HAD ONLY ONE PURPOSE! That being to cut millions of pounds sterling from the budget and to hell with efficiency!
Their Mantra was, - Only a Senior officer should be able to call for assistance from Air Support,
What does the Bobby on the beat up to his neck in Sh** know about it anyway?
TF
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Hmmm
I remember the name, the archive shows that YoP was based in Asia and Sussex, so the Asia bit is similar....
I'll see what the rest of the archive shows
"Ye Olde Pilot Join Date Apr 2006 Location Sussex and Asia Posts 173
I'll see what the rest of the archive shows
"Ye Olde Pilot Join Date Apr 2006 Location Sussex and Asia Posts 173
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TF - Thank you, if I'm going to be in agreement with anyone on here then I'm glad it's you.
Sky Sports - I couldn't agree more with you that saving a life is worth whatever it costs but surely that doesn't mean, once you've done that, it's okay to pi$$ the rest of your budget away doing tasks which don't warrant the use of a helicopter. Your logic could not be more flawed nor could you be further away from proving or justifying anything.
Sky Sports - I couldn't agree more with you that saving a life is worth whatever it costs but surely that doesn't mean, once you've done that, it's okay to pi$$ the rest of your budget away doing tasks which don't warrant the use of a helicopter. Your logic could not be more flawed nor could you be further away from proving or justifying anything.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Well, I hope you have briefed your MP truthfully.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 2nd Mar 2015 at 10:03.
Thread Starter
His FOI request should see to it that he has all the relevent facts and figures.
It might take a while to get an answer, because, apparently, there is already a stack of them on someone's desk in Wakefield.
It might take a while to get an answer, because, apparently, there is already a stack of them on someone's desk in Wakefield.
Sky: well it won't be because of the petition that's for certain. No politician worth his salt is going to raise his head above the parapet for 113 votes 
He may add the issue to part of another general question about policing but that's about as far as it will go. It will be drowned out by cries from other MP's about cutbacks in the police force that really will hurt - like....................................................poli cing
He may add the issue to part of another general question about policing but that's about as far as it will go. It will be drowned out by cries from other MP's about cutbacks in the police force that really will hurt - like....................................................poli cing
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Before this degenerates further into one "anti" Hi-Jacking the whole Topic,
I can personally attest that a Police Helicopter CAN be effective in reducing Street robberies !
Several years ago I was involved in an "Operation" targetting exactly this type of crime, in an area where there was LOTS of it going on daily.
On every flight wherever possible, the aircraft would also pay a visit to the Target area and "fly the flag".
We would attend when en route to another Task if it was not an urgent deployment, and also on the way back, as well as between tasks.
We would fly lower than our usual profile, making it noisy and obvious to those on the ground that we were there - and that we were watching.
We would have the side door open with the rear Observer obviously scanning the area with Binoculars, and deploy the Nitesun at night.
"Ground troops" were called to anything at all that looked remotely suspicious.
On Day 1 it was the first day in over 2 years that there were NO reported Street robberies in the area, and over the 2 week period Street Robberies were down by over 40%, which could not be attributed to any other reason.
Was it "cost effective" ?- I don't know - I don't even know what that really means - How do you measure what it would have cost to deal with all the Street robberies that were prevented ????
Was it effective ? You bet it was !
I can personally attest that a Police Helicopter CAN be effective in reducing Street robberies !
Several years ago I was involved in an "Operation" targetting exactly this type of crime, in an area where there was LOTS of it going on daily.
On every flight wherever possible, the aircraft would also pay a visit to the Target area and "fly the flag".
We would attend when en route to another Task if it was not an urgent deployment, and also on the way back, as well as between tasks.
We would fly lower than our usual profile, making it noisy and obvious to those on the ground that we were there - and that we were watching.
We would have the side door open with the rear Observer obviously scanning the area with Binoculars, and deploy the Nitesun at night.
"Ground troops" were called to anything at all that looked remotely suspicious.
On Day 1 it was the first day in over 2 years that there were NO reported Street robberies in the area, and over the 2 week period Street Robberies were down by over 40%, which could not be attributed to any other reason.
Was it "cost effective" ?- I don't know - I don't even know what that really means - How do you measure what it would have cost to deal with all the Street robberies that were prevented ????
Was it effective ? You bet it was !
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Sky Sports;
Sky, are you saying that in 2014 your unit found 7 missing persons?
Hopefully this will put the 'waste of money' debate to bed. But, it will need an honest answer from the doubters.
My unit costs @£1.3M per year to run.
In 2014 we had 115 misper searches.
Of those, 6 or 7 were very close to death when we found them in isolated locations.
This works out at £185,000 per life saved.
My unit costs @£1.3M per year to run.
In 2014 we had 115 misper searches.
Of those, 6 or 7 were very close to death when we found them in isolated locations.
This works out at £185,000 per life saved.
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Coco
By your example the sound of the helicopter cut crime so maybe by the same token every police car should use blues and twos 24/7
I am old enough to remember a cost effective police deterrent to crime.
It was called a beat bobby
To Andy and all others who think I am Doctor Who..
Nice to take the credit for other posters but just one RP who has taken the plunge in to the shark tank that is PP.
If I wanted to influence decisions then letters to MP's and local newspapers would have more impact than wasting time here with those who are just defending their monthly pay cheque
By your example the sound of the helicopter cut crime so maybe by the same token every police car should use blues and twos 24/7
I am old enough to remember a cost effective police deterrent to crime.
It was called a beat bobby
To Andy and all others who think I am Doctor Who..
Nice to take the credit for other posters but just one RP who has taken the plunge in to the shark tank that is PP.
If I wanted to influence decisions then letters to MP's and local newspapers would have more impact than wasting time here with those who are just defending their monthly pay cheque
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Rome,
I don't think you'll find many in here disagreeing with the idea
that you should go away and waste your time somewhere else
( Oh, and Police cars don't have "two's" amymore -
that's just another delusion of the past you seem to be living in ).
No more Troll food from me !
I don't think you'll find many in here disagreeing with the idea
that you should go away and waste your time somewhere else
( Oh, and Police cars don't have "two's" amymore -
that's just another delusion of the past you seem to be living in ).
No more Troll food from me !
