yme

SS,
I feel a little guilty that you ended up with the flack resulting from my typing error?

Romeopapa

Silsoe and others ....

please go back and read TC's post.

I must have hit a nerve here?

Sky Sports

Romeopapa,

Go back and read my post #116.......its nearer the truth.

Go back to my post #103 and answer the questions.

Old model policing = lots of bobbies on the beat, supported by a few backroom staff.

New model policing = few bobbies on the beat, supported by hoards of HR, business support, analyists, accountants, business development, etc etc.

You need to ask the public which model they would prefer.

Sky Sports

So, last Sunday, no aircraft available in the whole of the North West region. Lancashire Police making repeated calls for air support throughout the day. A prolonged pursuit, in and around Manchester that required air support. NPAS dispatching aircraft from other regions to assist, only for them to have to turn back because of the poor weather on the surrounding high ground.

For 3 points.

With the closure of Rhuddlan and Warton, and the introduction of a more efficient business / operating model, will this situation happen;
A) Less often
B) More often

Nail The Dream

LESS often !

Because the Bobbies in Manchester will realise there's no point asking for Air Support,
as it won't arrive in time, so the aircraft won't get launched in the first place
and then find it has to turn back because the weather is crap en route,
or the job is over before they get there.

That will be 3 Bonus points for NPAS though, who will push the statistics out
showing how much they have saved by reducing the number of flying hours

Nail

Sky Sports

Awkward, (for NPAS) question of the day #1;

With the ditching of the 902 fleet, how much will it cost to have the new maintenance contract - ink still wet - torn up? Anything near to the £4.5M you hope to save?

Awkward, (for NPAS) question of the day #2;

If the fleet size is getting smaller, why do you need to recruit ANOTHER Continuing Airworthiness Management Support Officer?
http://www.npas.police.uk/news/new-v...upport-officer

MightyGem

As maps with circles are all the rage, here's one that takes in to account a bobby deciding he wants an aircraft, his call to his CR, the transfer to NPAS control, tasking the aircraft, crew brief, start up and take off with a 15 minute flight. Total time 25mins.



Taken from here:
https://www.facebook.com/constablechaos

Sky Sports

#SaveOurChopperCoppers

Is trending on Twitter right now.

RotaryWingB2

Because the actual CAM is a f*ckin idiot?

SilsoeSid

MG, I'll agree that Constable Chaos' picture is probably a more realistic picture of deployment effectiveness for those dynamic tasks, (10 minute time to lift!!??) however as with all things, they need to be looked at with open eyes from both sides.

Your pic gives the impression Wales is left bare, with the figure of 3,063,456 placed in an area of no coverage. In reality this picture below shows that the areas you show with no 'effective' cover in Wales, as it happens all the areas in blue, have a very sparse population.

"This is a List of Welsh principal areas by population density in the 2011 UK census."

List of Welsh principal areas by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Taking the other figures that are on the Constable Chaos picture into account, covering the 'effectively uncovered' parts of England, they total 2,889,000. As the population of England is just over 53 million, that 'uncovered' figure represents about 5% of the population. Not that bad really if you think about it, especially when Constable Chaos has reduced the NPAS circles by 60% to support his/her argument.

Just saying

SilsoeSid

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just don't want you to muddy the waters by altering things to suit an agenda.

For example, in MG's picture from Constable Chaos, when does the clock actually begin to tick?

G0ULI

Unbelievable as it may seem, in 1980, the targets were for ground units to arrive on scene within 6 minutes for a 999 call, 12 minutes for stuff that wasn't quite so urgent and an hour for everything else. Messages were written down on paper message pads and failure to hit the response target resulted in a report to the Chief Super the following morning.

Now we have computers, intelligence analysts predicting where crimes will occur, a horde of civilian staff, helicopters, permanently armed patrols and centralised bases to improve efficiency. You are lucky to get a response within 24 hours unless you actually have hands on a suspect, or it's a terrorist or firearms incident, and then everyone is ordered to hold back in the interests of safety. Of course the worst possible outcome is that someone has their feelings hurt or gets a bruise or two while violently resisting arrest.

The Job may have had many faults in the past, but it worked a lot better than the farce we have been left with today. NPAS will survive the reorganisation and cutbacks, but the country will be split into areas that have virtually constant coverage and those where air assets will only be deployed in the most exceptional circumstances, by which time it probably won't be worth the bother. No account seems to have been taken of the effects of the prevailing climate on air operations, or maybe it has. East Anglia is frequently covered in fog during the colder months, so no air cover just might make sense. Doesn't seem to bother the Air Ambulance chaps too much though.

Since the Coast Watch stations have been closed, and there is no longer any air cover, just who is watching all the creeks and inlets on the East Coast to prevent drug and people smugglers from landing or flying into farm strips and those abandoned airfields that haven't been given over to development?

SilsoeSid

Using the same size circles used in MG's post from Constable Chaos;



… if we were to apply the same sized circles to a map from pre NPAS days, we would see something like this;



Putting them together would show a picture very much like this;

Art of flight

I think any of those maps don't pass muster. The fatal flaw is shown in the monthly stats for each unit, take the Boreham unit, the greater proportion of its flights are to the south and west, Basildon, Southend, North Kent etc. The centre of the circle might be at Boreham, but operationally the aircraft is mainly flying off centre and will require fuel at Boreham before redeploying in the Suffolk and Norfolk direction, rarely will it be Sat fat dumb and happy at Boreham waiting for Norfolk to call. I'd imagine this is the case in many other circles.

Sky Sports

Short-term scenario, (next 4 year period);

The country is in debt, the books need to be balance, police don't have the budgets they used to, cuts need to be made and forces can't afford the air support contributions they used to make.

NPAS solution - close bases and get rid of aircraft, (whilst increasing the backroom staff numbers, naturally!) Tea and medals all round.


Medium-term scenario, (2020-2025 ish)

The country is out of debt, there is more money for public services, police budgets increase. PCC's (if they still exist) demand more air support with quicker response times, i.e. local air support units.

NPAS solution - errrrrrr, hang on a minute, errrrrrrrr, I know the answer to this one, errrrrrr, can I interest you in a fixed wing? errrrrrr, ask me again next month when I have retired, byeeeeeeee.

Sky Sports

This picture makes a good point. Backs up the North / South devide arguement.

https://twitter.com/ChopperLancsSOS/...821760/photo/1

MightyGem

From the time the bobby on the street decides he want Air Support.

It's not my pic.

aeromys

That 'North South divide' map makes no point at all.
London will have 2 dedicated helicopters not 4.
However, NPAS being a borderless response, if you're counting the other three SE bases that could cover London if required, then you have to count the populations of the home counties they normally cover also.

SilsoeSid

Sky,

That picture highlights all that is wrong with these random pictures, full of figures & stats.

For a start, the population of London is at least a million more than stated and not one of those four helicopters pictured within the M25 is actually based within the M25.

Before going into specifics about population numbers, which four 'London' aircraft does your picture refer to? If you look at my picture on post 108, you may notice that the four south east 'bases' actually cover, in 20 mins, a far greater area and population than the red area in the picture you are promoting. Specifically, those bases cover from Cambridge to Portsmouth and Dover to Gloucester.


(Just putting a balance on all these pictures/stats)

SilsoeSid

So in the case if a misper task for example, that would be even before houses, , under beds, wardrobes, back gardens, sheds and local surrounds have been searched, friends contacted and phones pinged!

Shouldn't the clock start when the experienced TFO or POLSA decides the next best appropriate course of action is air support?

Herein lies the problem with these pictures.