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Cross Country - Flying High

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Old 24th Dec 2013, 21:01
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Cross Country - Flying High

Hi - I'm a new helicopter pilot (rated last June) with just short of 3,000 hours fixed wing over a lifetime (all civilian, no instructing, no right seat, mostly just PIC IFR/Glider/Multi). So I have tons of cross country experience all over the western US. Typical of a fixed-wing guy, my solo cross country in the H269C was 4 hours, 45 minutes with 2 fuel stops and 4 landings. Much of it was over the wide open spaces of southern Arizona, away from the city. OK, enough background.

I have occasion to accompany a very experienced helicopter pilot on a trip to bring a 206-type helicopter back from the mod shop. It'll be a west to east run, with the prevailing winds aloft. I'm pretty sure he's going to be OK with me flying the trip, and I want to plan it and fly my plan. I'm also pretty sure he's going to want to fly it low, like 1000 AGL. This makes me uncomfortable. If I were alone, I'd want to fly it at typical VFR enroute altitudes (it's Winter, no problems with DA or temp-limits). My thoughts are
  1. I can be in radar contact with center and get flight following
  2. If the engine quits I have lots of time to pick a spot and flexibility to do my auto
  3. The probable tailwinds aloft are often higher at 5500 or 7500 than down low, so there are fuel and time savings there
  4. The air will probably be smoother, especially around the hilly areas, and definitely around the mountains
I have discussed flying at enroute altitudes with the old salts where I volunteer as a helper and they always seem to get uneasy. I pinned one guy down and he started talking about "What if you get a chip light?". OK, 1,500 FPM or so during an auto, so it takes 4 minutes to kill off 6,000 feet. One guy said you shouldn't do an auto on a chip light because rolling off power could precipitate the failure that's probably coming. In my pea brain, reducing the loads on the power train might make it last longer?

So here's my question: Is it worth forgoing all of the above advantages to reduce the chip light to landing time by 3.5 minutes?

Last edited by Bob Denny; 24th Dec 2013 at 21:58.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 00:29
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If it's your show, yes fly it high for all the advantages you mention. A west-to-east in the winter should probably get you some pretty good tailwinds and if flying in mountainous areas, extra height above the peaks and ridges when crossing them is your friend in terms of turbulence avoidance.

You might compromise with the other guy when it comes to a leg or part of a leg that's scenic and where turbulence isn't a factor. Seeing the sights helicopter style is best done at a reasonably low altitude.

When you are planning on going places like an airplane does, it's best to plan on flying it like an airplane is flown: get on upstairs, set an appropriate cruise power, and enjoy the benefits. Those who insist on flying helicopters hundreds of miles cross-country at 300 to 500 feet AGL because of possible emergencies are (in my opinion) engaging in some needless dramatics.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 01:32
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Hi Bob, welcome to the wonderful world of rotary.

I'd concur with aris - use the wind for all the advantages you mention, but enjoy the ability to take a safe scenic view from 1000' or so if appropriate. You can't fly rotary in a "might-get-a-chip-light" profile, or you'd go mad - it's just that most of us do jobs that benefit from being able to use the versatiliy of the machine at relatively low level. Getting up high might be fun sometimes, but we're be hitting our heads on airspace most of the time anyway!

In 30+ years I've had a handful of chip lights (engine, MGB & TRGB) and all have resulted in a safe landing, without significant sweat - most showing minimal metal on the detector. Having read a lot of reports for professional development, I can't actually remember reading one where a chip resulted in a seizure - we'd all be paranoid if that were the case!
The only advice I'd give would be to respect aris' words re mountain turbulence, since not doing so, especially when new to rotary, will much more likely get you than a chip light!

Enjoy the trip & let us know how you get on, it should be fun as the 206 is a trusty bird.

Happy Christmas,
z

Last edited by zorab64; 25th Dec 2013 at 01:34. Reason: typo
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 03:05
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to plan it and fly my plan.
Hmmm.... I have flown from Northern California to Missouri in February every year for about 5 years. There is no plan other than it changes hourly based upon weather. I have also done the route many other times going both ways.

I'm also pretty sure he's going to want to fly it low, like 1000 AGL.
Pretty low.....ha, other than power checks I can count the times on one hand that i have been above 600 AGL in the last 10 years. Bear in mind that you do not want to be high above the Rockies you will exceed MSL limits.

If it was me, you would not go above 500 AGL, and it has to do with comfort level.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 09:07
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I'm totally with Gordy.
Between 10' and 500' depending on the terrain.
Everything above makes me feel
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 10:21
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There seems to a trend to a different approach to this type of question depending on whether you are from the US or the UK.

Generally speaking I was taught to fly around at around 2000-3000 feet as long as airspace and weather allows, and that's what I taught other people and generally what I do still.

This allows sufficient time in case an autorotation is required for a forced landing etc, but even at 3000 you are still going to be on the ground in about 90 seconds, having taught forced landings hundreds of times I know how altitude is critical for the outcome especially when people are not current with autorotations.

Deliberately flying at 500'-1000' when you don't have too seems to me to have far more con's than pro's, especially when you try to do a forced landing when you potentially only have 15-30 seconds before you are on ground to 1) enter auto 2) turn into wind 3) choose a field 4) mayday call 5) shutdown checks 6) engine off landing.

Actually in my current job we generally are outbound at 5000' and inbound at 4000' which gives 1) better fuel burn 2) better comms 3) keeps you above all the nonsense going on below you with people flying lower level 😄

My instructor told me "the higher you are, the safer you are" and generally I agree with him as long as you can get on the ground 5 mins max.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 12:18
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Long Cross Country flying in a helicopter......I am solidly with Gordy on this!

I have done many long flights.....like from Deadhorse to Lafayette and Unga Island to San Diego. (Alaska to the southern border of the USA).

If you fly high you enjoy certain benefits but lose the chance of a life time.

This part of the World is best enjoyed down where you can see it and the people who live there.

I tried to use Non-Tower controlled airports, preferably those with grass runways, for my fuel stops....and night stops. The food and beer seems better in small towns for some reason. The Hospitality is always much better.

Fly at whatever altitude you like.....but in Helicopters lower is better for reasons that make Flying fun and not just another Task.

There is something about picking a heading....without drawing a line on the map....and seeing what you see along the way. With the advent of GPS finding your fuel stop is so much easier....and finding that spot on the map every hour so you know where you are.....or those places you see that you would like to come back to another day can be marked for later reference.

For me....it is IFR.....I follow rivers, railways, roads, ridges, ravines, radials....or a compass needle....and ENJOY the trip. It is so nice to be able to GO somewhere in a helicopter rather than the usual kind of flying we do. Get the most enjoyment out of it you can!


Separate Topic.....Chip Lights.

Chip Lights are over rated as indicators of dire emergencies.

Most are false indications.

Some are valid indications but show only normal wear particles or Fuzz. Clean them and back into the air....save the material found.

Some are valid and have indications of abnormal wear.....usually the procedure is clean the detector, flush the oil system and cooler...then back into the air and monitor the situation.

Then there are the ones....which are very very very rare...that have real and serious indications of a problem.....which usually are a follow-on to a series of all the other types.

You will never see part numbers, serial numbers or other such Large pieces of stuff on a Chip Detector or see a Chip Detector come on immediately before a catastrophic Gear Box or Engine Failure.....they just do not work that way.

So planning your flight around a Chip Detector is not something you need to do ever....and whatever you do.....land the helicopter at a nice place for the Engineer to work on the thing....and one that has a nice Hotel/Bar/Diner for you to enjoy while the Engineer checks the Aircraft.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 13:07
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Wow, thanks to all of the folks who replied here. Taking all of the info in, I will fly enroute except over the scenic mountains east of our starting point, Carlsbad CA. Most of it is just open desert and we fly over that stuff all the time in the performance of our job.

Thanks again for the great input and variety of philosophies. I'm hooked on this group!! I'm sure I'll have other questions in the future. And maybe I can contribute here too!!

[26-Dec at 0522 UTC -- PS: I've posted two messages with photos and they have not yet appeared. I suspect I am on moderation due to being a newbie. I hope I can get past this, because the discussion has now passed me by.]

Last edited by Bob Denny; 26th Dec 2013 at 04:47.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 13:20
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As one gets older....one tends to fly lower....ever wonder why that is?

Out of one base I worked at flying Bell 212's....the youngest pilot launched off calling his climb to FL100.....oldest pilot launched off a few minutes later on the same route....and called climbing to FL001. There is a a message there some where!
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 13:40
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Go low, enjoy all the wildlife you will encounter, enjoy the incredible scenery you will encounter....enjoy all the reasons we fly helicopters.... If high flight is what you really enjoy, airliners are for you.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 16:15
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Bob, it gets down to an issue of trust. To wit: Do you trust your aircraft to get you to Point B? Most helicopter pilots don’t. Either consciously or sub-consciously, many helicopter pilots have a nagging feeling of dread that a catastrophic failure of some sort will occur which will require them to be on the ground RIGHTFRIGGIN’ NOW! And so they fly low, as SASless notes. They don’t want to be “way up there” when Something Bad happens.

I’m no Sigmund Freud, but I think I know why. Most helicopter pilots are pretty untrustworthy people. There, I said it. And it’s true. If you’ve met many of them you can vouch for this on your own. You can’t trust a helicopter pilot to tell you the time of day, unfortunately. Some will vehemently pretend to deny this, but again, stick around this industry for a while and you’ll see what I mean.

Hand and hand with this personality “quirk” is the fact that most helicopter pilots don’t trust anything or anybody. This lack of trust explains why so many helicopter pilots are fearful, paranoid atheists. (Want to know how paranoid a helicopter pilot is? Just ask him about politics - then stand back!)

Helicopter pilots feel that they are absolutely in charge of their own destiny, and giving up even one small iota of that control is totally unacceptable and abhorrent. Helicopter pilots don’t trust the maintenance guys and they certainly don’t trust their machines, heavens no! Thus, that helpless feeling of being up high in a helicopter when the poop hits the fan is utterly intolerable; too much for them to bear.

They’ll rationalize it. They’ll worry, “What if you get a chip light?” Or, “What if you lose all your transmission oil?” Or, “What if the engine catches on fire?” Or, "What if the rotor blades fly off?" Because in their mind (either the front or back of their mind), every time they fly all of those things are imminent. They’ll tell you, “Oh, the scenery is so much better down low!” But that’s just a mask to hide their real fear. And yes, it’s fear.

Like you, I fly airplanes too. When I’m flying along up high in a single-engine airplane I sometimes wonder to myself, “Gee, what if the engine caught on fire? How fast could I get ‘er down before my feet burned off?” The answer to that could be troubling. But then I ask myself, “...And how likely is that to happen?” The answer is: Not very. So I relax and have myself a sandwich.

There are a number of emergencies that might cause a typical helicopter pilot to want to be on the ground pretty quickly. There’s always the dreaded chip-light (“LAND IMMEDIATELY!!!) that makes a lot of pilots panic. There are also a lot of spinny things (bearings and linkages and such) in our aircraft that can come askew. But aside from in-flight fire, the worst-case scenario is probably a total loss of transmission oil. Yikes! Does that ever happen??

Like a few of the guys on this board, I’ve been flying for a living for over 30 years and I’ve got a logbook full of hours, mostly in single-engine helicopters. And me, I fly high. It’s cooler up there, often smoother, and sometimes you can find a ripping tailwind. Plus, I like the view from altitude. If I were that distrustful of my equipment…if I were that paranoid…that afraid of Something Bad happening to my helicopter, I just could not fly it at all - not at any altitude! But see, I also have faith. Faith in the designers, faith in the builders, and faith in the maintainers. Without that faith, I doubt I could even climb into one of these crazy contraptions in the first place.

If the pilot with whom you are ferrying that helicopter is a “typical”helicopter pilot, I’ll bet that you’ll likely spend the whole trip dogging along down at 1,000’ agl. Or less. If that happens, you’ll know some other things about him too...perhaps things that you'd rather not know.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 26th Dec 2013 at 10:49. Reason: Move off topic stuff
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 16:51
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Over the years I see many pilots out there flying as low as possible, just because they can. Which is probably one of the worst reasons for doing so. I would strongly recommend that you fly enroute at least 200 AGL. The reason is that below 200 AGL obstructions are not required to be marked, painted or lite. Way too many wire strike accidents happen enroute with pilots flying low just because they can.

As for going higher, keep in mind that unlike many airplanes your maximum speed decreases due to altitude. So unless there is a significant increase in ground speed there is no major benefit to higher altitudes.

Enjoy your trip.
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Old 25th Dec 2013, 18:40
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If you want a great sight seing experience go low.
If you want and Wx permits go high - fuel burn greatly decreased and depending on winds a better ground speed and perhaps a smoother ride.

Remember that even though your indicated VNE seems low that your actual TAS will be pretty close to VNE at the lower level.
Let's use 130 kts VNE as an example and say it decrease 4KTS /1000 above 3000 ft so your vne at 9000 would be 106 knots.
131 TAS at 1000 using +13c
135 TAS at 3000 using standard atmoshphere +9c
121 TAS at 9000 using SA -3c

Oh yeah note also that VNE is predicated on DA (density alt ) not PA ( pressure alt.) So take that into account especially if flying in high temps.

Don't worry about chip lights.

If you need to get down decrease Q to about 10 or 15 and run that sucker up to VNE you will just about peg the VSI. Give yourself LOTS repeat LOTS of room to level off at the bottom. Monitor RPM on the way down. LOL

I am sure others be be along to disagree with me but that's my opinion.
Have a great and safe flight and post some photos.

Last edited by albatross; 25th Dec 2013 at 19:17. Reason: using numbers closer to 206 limitations
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Old 26th Dec 2013, 02:21
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Once again thanks to everyone who provided their thoughts on the question at hand. Here's a pic I took 10 days ago in the Superstition Wilderness Area. We had dropped off a mountain rescue/medic team and were waiting for them to bring the injured hiker down to us. The glints on the nose and windshield are from the Moon. Can you say good goggle night??? I am a "part time" volunteer (armed/uniformed) TFO for the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. Well, not too part time... 1200+ hours on duty this year. I did not make this "off airport" landing! I'm not the real pilot, though I do get to fly and get instruction.

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Old 26th Dec 2013, 02:21
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I'd go high - better radio coms, if you have a tailwind your time will be shorter, and your fuel consumption will be much less.
Watch the Vne as it decreases with altitude (but as a FW driver you know about TAS being higher for the same IAS).

You'll also be able to watch the weather, and God forbid if the engine fails, you'll have more choice of landing places.
Enjoy the flight and take a large storage card in your camera.
Happy new Year!
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Old 26th Dec 2013, 04:15
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Shawn -- You're one of my heroes! I was at HAI for your Excellence in Communications award. My decision to pay for the awards banquet was driven by my having read Cyclic and Collective during my "basic training" leading up to my checkride in June 2013. I'm glad I went:



Thank you so much for your input!

-- Bob
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Old 26th Dec 2013, 04:42
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Old 26th Dec 2013, 08:15
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FH1100, as much I as I dislike your rant and religious/trust aspersions to my professional I'll just say: off thread, please take it somewhere else.

--------------------------------

Bob, like others I can only give you my own opinion on this matter. I too have some fixed wing time up in the levels which I know has made a difference.

I will choose my own cruise height based on all the factors: fuel economy, OAT (I hate cooking in my suit!), scenery, terrain (ie mountain winds, water), comms range, bird risk, traffic congestion, and so on. Please don't discount the idea of just enjoying the ride.

There are days when I will cruise just a few hundred feet off the ground soaking in the sights, but I am very aware of the higher bird risk and reduced communication. Other days I will be a mile or two above the ground where it's hard to even tell we are moving, but I am keenly watching the weather below and concious of how the gearboxes are behaving.

As far as the component failure theories, I can only offer hangar stories: when my engine has quit I wanted altitude, when the gearboxes lost oil I wanted to be low.
I've had both happen. Ironically, the most notable auto started high, I was very relaxed flying to my chosen spot, and was only able to see the rough terrain when it was nearly too late to choose another, go figure.
With both C-Box's that went, I was both high and without a place to go. I was fortunate that they kept playing as long as I needed them to. I have have had enough friends who weren't so lucky.

The best advice I can give is to have an open mind. Plan each flight based on the merits of today, with the benefit of the wisdom of yesterday, not with a fear of the unknown.

And if possible, like SAS, my cross country/ferry flights are planned one amazing sight/adventure to the next. Never in a a straight line!
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Old 26th Dec 2013, 14:06
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Bob:
Many thanks for the 'plug'. See you at HAI this year? I'll be teaching again.
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Old 26th Dec 2013, 14:53
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Yes I will be there. Which class are you teaching?
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