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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:40
  #1281 (permalink)  
 
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Edited to add:


Quote:
The N2s wound down to 60% and the Nr decayed until it reached the N2 needles ... Guess what! .... The rotors re-engaged and we sat there realising

Of course the needles re-joined, but that's not the same as being governed. Without engines the Nr will tend to zero, over time, but with residual N2 from idling engines the Nr will stop decaying. I hope you know this and are just chucking grenades! (the alternative is dismaying...)

and the airframe embedded, either the blades will thrash themselves or the input shaft will break?
That's a separate discsussion! (whatever embedded means)
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:44
  #1282 (permalink)  

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RVDT
Sid,
When do you think the engines were shut down?
Considering there is compelling evidence that the blades were not rotating when the aircraft hit the roof?
Possibly at the same time of the the twist grip action, when he realised how bad the situation was. If you think about it, you could add to the reference cards for that particular emergency, 'If time permits .... '.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:51
  #1283 (permalink)  
 
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Sid,

How much power do you think it takes to drive the blades at 60% flat pitch.

A standard procedure on the old S-76 A with Allison C30's was to start and stop
with one engine in idle and the rotor brake ON.

Brake ON start an engine - brake OFF - start second one.

Shutdown one engine - Brake ON until blades stop - shutdown second one.

Even with 2 engines at idle the brake was man enough to stop the main rotor
as long as it stopped without a blade being over the exhaust.

I know the brake in a 135 isn't up to it but the drive train certainly would be.

At MIN FLOW I would guess that each each might make 30 HP at best.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:54
  #1284 (permalink)  
 
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This discussion is less than depressing...
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 22:22
  #1285 (permalink)  
 
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Lets' stick to topic eh and you two go talk behind closed doors.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 22:44
  #1286 (permalink)  

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Old 16th Dec 2013, 22:48
  #1287 (permalink)  
 
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Sid,

Can you describe the finger manipulation involved in shutting the engines?

Can you do it "just" by rolling the twist grip all the way closed?
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 23:03
  #1288 (permalink)  
 
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Is it fair to say that most Police and HEMS Pilots are ex military?
At the beginning of 2011, before all this NPAS malarky started, there were 119 full time Police pilots in the ASUs in England, Wales and NI(I didn't include Scotland for some reason), not counting floaters.

Of the 119, 97 were ex mil with 56 ex Army Air Corps, 19 ex Royal Navy, 11 ex RAF and 11 ex Royal Marines, leaving 22 as "civilian" pilots.

No idea what the numbers are at present.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 23:04
  #1289 (permalink)  
 
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Check PMs, you know who you are.............
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 00:26
  #1290 (permalink)  
 
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Eurocopter Statement reported on Reuters and also BBC R4 News

People .... I am brand new here but for your information this is a new Reuters report timed 23.54 GMT Monday 16 Dec but it was also on BBC Radio 4 midnight news tonight...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/12/16/uk-britain-helicopters-idUKBRE9BF1HW20131216

At present I am unable to find the link to the Eurocopter statement directly but I am sure most of you people will do so in short order. However to quote directly from the Reuters link above:

----------------
Quote

(Reuters) - Eurocopter issued a safety alert to operators of its EC135 helicopters on Monday after aircraft from the same fleet as one that crashed into a Scottish pub last month killing 10 people and some in Europe were found with a fuel gauge defect.

UK-based air services company Bond Aviation grounded its fleet of 38 EC135s on December 11, after an air ambulance, one of its 22 aircraft leased in Britain, was found to have a fuel indicator problem. Tests found others also had the same fault.

A spokesman for Eurocopter, a unit of European aerospace and defence company EADS, said tests by Bond and two other EC135 operators in Europe found possible similar supply-tank fuel gauging errors that overestimated the fuel on board.

"The first analysis shows that the indication of the fuel quantity in the supply tanks could be overestimated," the company said in a statement.

"All crews should be aware that in the worst case a red warning "Low Fuel" could appear without any amber FUEL Caution before."

Eurocopter said it was issuing a safety notice to remind all EC135 operators to follow the safety procedures already in place and outlined in the flight manual, regardless of the aircraft's fuel quantity indication.

The company said it would "update its Safety Information Notice as needed" with investigations continuing.

The discovery of the fault in Bond's fleet came 12 days after one of its EC135s leased to the police crashed into the Clutha pub in Glasgow killing three crew and 7 others.

The helicopter was only minutes away from returning to its base when it dropped vertically on to the roof of the pub.

A preliminary report from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) stated last week that initial checks found no engine or gearbox problems and fuel on board. Investigations are continuing.

Bond Aviation said in a statement on Monday that the results of the tests on the rest of its helicopters were validated by Eurocopter, and appropriate repairs were made before returning the aircraft to service.

No one at Bond was immediately available to comment on how many of its aircraft were found to have the fault.

"We also took the decision to increase safety barriers by mandating that all our EC135s should maintain a minimum of 90kg of fuel onboard at all times," Bond Aviation added.

Unquote
------------------------

Regards
Chip
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 02:56
  #1291 (permalink)  
 
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Instrument Availability

In the Eurocopter, if the main engines stop (for whatever reason) and the electrical generators drop out, do you lose the main panel instruments as well or do they continue to function uninterrupted on battery power? Would the pilot actually still have rotor rpm readings, fuel tank readings, attitude and airspeed data still displayed in front of them in the usual position? If not, do the backup instruments have lighting or need to be switched on manually? Just curious.
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 06:52
  #1292 (permalink)  
 
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The list you made remain working on battery power
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 07:07
  #1293 (permalink)  
 
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Fuel Starvation and establish autorotation

Hello

Looks like there is any combination of facts that can produce this on EC135, there is also a warning on Flight Manual aboout Water drain :

If ther helicopter is parkedon a slope water might be left in the tanks even after the tanks have been drained.
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 07:17
  #1294 (permalink)  
 
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Even though the press are reporting all these fuel issues I can't believe low fuel was the reason for this, or even the first hole in the cheese!

One engine would have flamed out first, due to supply tank capacity differences, Surely the pilot would have made radio contact either stating low fuel or worse an engine out, RFM States min of 8 Min endurance once Warning is shown and AAIB physically took enough fuel out for continued flight.

Just doesn't add up, I've had several fuel indication issues to rectify on other helicopters types, reading 30lbs per side when empty was the worse and none of those dropped out of the sky.

FS
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 07:23
  #1295 (permalink)  
 
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That's not exclusive to the EC135!
Once again it is ALL in the wording. EC have not at any stage said that this probe was contaminated by water. Read the f-ing release for God's sake!
It is purely a reminder. How many times on this thread do I have to say that you need to READ the press releases and see what is FACT.
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 07:26
  #1296 (permalink)  
 
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Standard, pray tell, what is this 'combination of facts'?
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 07:32
  #1297 (permalink)  
 
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henry crun,
No. There are 70 pages of speculation and circular discussion so far. No facts on anything relevant to the accident.
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 08:14
  #1298 (permalink)  
 
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Here's an example of wording crime (fictional):

A man was killed today when his car left the road during a heavy rainstorm and struck a tree. A police spokesman took the opportunity to remind people about the dangers of speeding in rain and the need to have a minimum 1.6mm tread on their tyres.
The car had fairly new tyres and was within the speed limit, but the statement gave useful public information to prevent further accidents........ think about it
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 08:27
  #1299 (permalink)  
 
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Henry: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/529...-ec135s-3.html Post #50.

10watt: All aircraft fall out of the sky, some are controlled falls and others.....not. Lockerbie, Flight 182 and Strathclyde to name a few.
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Old 17th Dec 2013, 08:30
  #1300 (permalink)  
 
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It seems more and more like the Rotor on the downed Heli was not powered or autorotating, 1000ft would take possibly 2 to 4 seconds to be lost before contact with the ground(read Public House roof)....

So just how quickly would upward airflow, a slowing down set of engines drag from the powering down gearbox cause the main rotor to stop turning as seems to be the case with this particular helicopter incident, could it be that some sort of emergency on this type of engine/G/box/Rotor system would leave any experienced Pilot a similar time as has been quoted for the R22 in otherwords 1.1 seconds, which sadly would be lost in the blink of an eye whilst starting to scan vital instruments,...

As I am a PPL(H) this thread has been read from end to end by me but I still have great difficulty in understanding why it seems that the rotor was not turning to give the pilot some assitance, as a PPL I have practised Auto's many times on Robinsons, Jet Rs and the Gazelle, by following the known route they always worked,...so what stopped this emergency landing from happening on such a sophisticated Heli.? or do we all have to wait for the AAIB results..!

Peter R-B
Lancashire
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