Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
RVDT,
allowing for the fact I was confusing left with right, which I have now corrected, the probe being at the same height from the base of the tank would mean, all other things being equal, that the light would come on in the smaller tank first.
allowing for the fact I was confusing left with right, which I have now corrected, the probe being at the same height from the base of the tank would mean, all other things being equal, that the light would come on in the smaller tank first.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
If there's a practisng 135 engineering type here, or someone with one handy;
a. When one of the sensors/probes is found faulty and it is cleaned and tested again, and it subsequently works correctly, what is the substance than was removed? Would that be detectable on SPAO's sensors/probes, if it was present?
b. I assume there would be a fuel pressure caption just before flame out?
Nice post SASless
a. When one of the sensors/probes is found faulty and it is cleaned and tested again, and it subsequently works correctly, what is the substance than was removed? Would that be detectable on SPAO's sensors/probes, if it was present?
b. I assume there would be a fuel pressure caption just before flame out?
Nice post SASless
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Sasless
What about my theory
I'd also like to comment on the lack of autorotation theory. The final route of the aircraft was 180 out from its final resting orientation. It came over a high building attached to the rear of the pub.
What if autorotation was successfully entered albeit with rrpm on the low side. From 1000 at night over a city, there is very little time and few options to choose from. What if at the final stages you are faced with a large building. Crash into it of flare and use some collective. Survival instinct would be that you flare. You've now used our one shot of collective but you fall with no rrpm over the other side of the building.
I'd also like to comment on the lack of autorotation theory. The final route of the aircraft was 180 out from its final resting orientation. It came over a high building attached to the rear of the pub.
What if autorotation was successfully entered albeit with rrpm on the low side. From 1000 at night over a city, there is very little time and few options to choose from. What if at the final stages you are faced with a large building. Crash into it of flare and use some collective. Survival instinct would be that you flare. You've now used our one shot of collective but you fall with no rrpm over the other side of the building.
AOF, the Airbus info states that (q5),`...the supply tanks are automatically and continuosly supplying the supply tanks`. This would imply that the transfer switches are `on` all the time,or should be,until the main tank is empty. So, is that different to the ACManual...? If not ,then why are they being turned on/off...?
Did also pose a couple of Qs in #2045,but no response....
Did also pose a couple of Qs in #2045,but no response....
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Thomas coupling
You're making some assumptions there, and I'm not sure that's helpful. It's many years since I flew chinooks, but certainly we used to fly beep down autos all the way to the ground. I also know of a chinook that successfully completed one for real in an operational theatre.
We'll have to wait and see if there was any plausible reason that a successful auto was not not completed. In the circumstances we might also have to accept that we may just never know precisely what happened to the collective lever, or why. The AAIB will not speculate, nor is it their function to apportion 'blame'. (whatever that means?) They will take the verifiable, factual evidence only as far as it allows. However I'm sure the pilot's nearest and dearest won't thank some recent posters on here for smearing his reputation without (as yet) any supporting evidence.
One can only hope that these Skygods receive more considered treatment should their relatives ever have to cope with anything similar. Though an element of schadenfreude may then be tempting?
Approximately 180 degrees out of wind, 400 feet AGL, one engine out, at night (possibly goggles) AND THEN the remaining engine fails!
I keep thinking about his background (Chinooks) and his present job (EC135): both NEVER practice total engine failure(s) to the ground.
(Possibly) decades of practical inexperience with EOL's - further aggravated by the spatial predicament he found himself in that evening. RiP.
I keep thinking about his background (Chinooks) and his present job (EC135): both NEVER practice total engine failure(s) to the ground.
(Possibly) decades of practical inexperience with EOL's - further aggravated by the spatial predicament he found himself in that evening. RiP.
We'll have to wait and see if there was any plausible reason that a successful auto was not not completed. In the circumstances we might also have to accept that we may just never know precisely what happened to the collective lever, or why. The AAIB will not speculate, nor is it their function to apportion 'blame'. (whatever that means?) They will take the verifiable, factual evidence only as far as it allows. However I'm sure the pilot's nearest and dearest won't thank some recent posters on here for smearing his reputation without (as yet) any supporting evidence.
One can only hope that these Skygods receive more considered treatment should their relatives ever have to cope with anything similar. Though an element of schadenfreude may then be tempting?
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Tandemrotor,
Apologies. I wasn't trying to be condescending. My question " would you?" was intended to be rhetorical, expecting that you were trying to steer discussion to focus on the facts rather than relate to commentary from lawyers and publicists.
Lawyers and publicists will do their jobs to represent their clients. I hope that the AAIB do their job to investigate the causes and events of accidents without regard for their statements. I'm not sure how the AAIB can counter spin added by advocates, especially in a courtroom situation where expert witnesses that tell a different story than an advocate wants to hear are not recalled and the discussion moves on. I also agree that the dead pilot is likely to have the least vocal and deeply pocketed advocate, if any advocate at all.
Apologies. I wasn't trying to be condescending. My question " would you?" was intended to be rhetorical, expecting that you were trying to steer discussion to focus on the facts rather than relate to commentary from lawyers and publicists.
Lawyers and publicists will do their jobs to represent their clients. I hope that the AAIB do their job to investigate the causes and events of accidents without regard for their statements. I'm not sure how the AAIB can counter spin added by advocates, especially in a courtroom situation where expert witnesses that tell a different story than an advocate wants to hear are not recalled and the discussion moves on. I also agree that the dead pilot is likely to have the least vocal and deeply pocketed advocate, if any advocate at all.
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There's nothing automatic about the transfer of fuel to the supply tanks.
At start they're OFF, Prime pumps on for start (to prime engine feed lines), after start, Prime pumps OFF (as engine driven pumps are now sucking fuel from the supply tanks), and Transfer pumps ON. During flight according to the manual when a Aft pump or Fwd pump caution illuminates a specific action MUST be taken, which involves checking fuel contents, CBs and switch position, if it's obvious that lack of fuel over the pump is due to qty and aircraft attitude the pump should be switched off, then returned to the ON position when the attitude changes unless of course there's now no fuel. To be frank, it's a minor pain during flight but very predictable (normally).
At start they're OFF, Prime pumps on for start (to prime engine feed lines), after start, Prime pumps OFF (as engine driven pumps are now sucking fuel from the supply tanks), and Transfer pumps ON. During flight according to the manual when a Aft pump or Fwd pump caution illuminates a specific action MUST be taken, which involves checking fuel contents, CBs and switch position, if it's obvious that lack of fuel over the pump is due to qty and aircraft attitude the pump should be switched off, then returned to the ON position when the attitude changes unless of course there's now no fuel. To be frank, it's a minor pain during flight but very predictable (normally).
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awblain
Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick. The AAIB are utterly independent and beyond reproach.
Your point about the 'theatre' of the courtroom and advocates, is precisely where this will be played out at the Fatal Accident Inquiry. In this place, those with an agenda will absolutely attempt to represent only the interests of their own 'client' with little regard to accessing the truth.
As Art alluded to. It is absolutely essential the pilot is represented too. But to be effective, that will cost a significant sum. Possibly beyond the means of many of our own nearest and dearest.
I suspect we are in violent agreement.
Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick. The AAIB are utterly independent and beyond reproach.
Your point about the 'theatre' of the courtroom and advocates, is precisely where this will be played out at the Fatal Accident Inquiry. In this place, those with an agenda will absolutely attempt to represent only the interests of their own 'client' with little regard to accessing the truth.
As Art alluded to. It is absolutely essential the pilot is represented too. But to be effective, that will cost a significant sum. Possibly beyond the means of many of our own nearest and dearest.
I suspect we are in violent agreement.
Art.....what happens if you simply leave the Transfer Pumps ON....and never turn them off?
Omit what the procedures are in the book....explain to us any real reason the Pumps need to be switched off. Risk of fire, harm to the pump, loss of lubrication due lack of fuel going through the pump? Any Thermal Switches on the Pump to shut the Pump off if it gets hot?
I submit One can turn the Pumps on after the engines are running and never turn them off until after Engine Shutdown and no dangerous condition will occur.
Am I wrong and if so....why?
Omit what the procedures are in the book....explain to us any real reason the Pumps need to be switched off. Risk of fire, harm to the pump, loss of lubrication due lack of fuel going through the pump? Any Thermal Switches on the Pump to shut the Pump off if it gets hot?
I submit One can turn the Pumps on after the engines are running and never turn them off until after Engine Shutdown and no dangerous condition will occur.
Am I wrong and if so....why?
I submit One can turn the Pumps on after the engines are running and never turn them off until after Engine Shutdown and no dangerous condition will occur.
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Art.....what happens if you simply leave the Transfer Pumps ON....and never turn them off?
Omit what the procedures are in the book....explain to us any real reason the Pumps need to be switched off. Risk of fire, harm to the pump, loss of lubrication due lack of fuel going through the pump? Any Thermal Switches on the Pump to shut the Pump off if it gets hot?
I submit One can turn the Pumps on after the engines are running and never turn them off until after Engine Shutdown and no dangerous condition will occur.
Am I wrong and if so....why?
Omit what the procedures are in the book....explain to us any real reason the Pumps need to be switched off. Risk of fire, harm to the pump, loss of lubrication due lack of fuel going through the pump? Any Thermal Switches on the Pump to shut the Pump off if it gets hot?
I submit One can turn the Pumps on after the engines are running and never turn them off until after Engine Shutdown and no dangerous condition will occur.
Am I wrong and if so....why?
Max. allowed "dry run time" is 20 minutes. Although, procedure in RFM says "turn it OFF" if yellow light is ON (CAD), you don´t need to hurry with that.
You are absolutely right.
JR
What is the "Dry Run Time" based upon?
the probe being at the same height from the base of the tank would mean, all other things being equal, that the light would come on in the smaller tank first.
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Sorry, delayed and missed the question.....re transfer pumps on. The RFM says if caution ON, carry out drill, no exceptions. If others do something different that's up to them, the reasons given are lack of lubrication causing wear, overheating, and needlessly having electricity supplying a component in a fuel vapour rich container that could be a problem during a crash, the last is much the same reason not to have prime pumps on in flight once they have got the engines started. And of course you'll have an experienced TFO asking you why you're not following the drills!
In practice if you're performing say, a very slow orbit around the target and the pitch attitude is changing by a large degree because of high winds when into/downwind then at predictable fuel loads and Cof G the pump caution will come on and off and it would be akin to chasing your tail to keep switching it on and off every 2 minutes.
In practice if you're performing say, a very slow orbit around the target and the pitch attitude is changing by a large degree because of high winds when into/downwind then at predictable fuel loads and Cof G the pump caution will come on and off and it would be akin to chasing your tail to keep switching it on and off every 2 minutes.
the reasons given are lack of lubrication causing wear, overheating, and needlessly having electricity supplying a component in a fuel vapour rich container that could be a problem during a crash, the last is much the same reason not to have prime pumps on in flight once they have got the engines started.
The Transfer Pumps are fuel lubricated are they not?
The Transfer Pumps have a thermal switch on them that will switch them off if they begin to over heat....don't they?
So if left on and the residual fuel is insufficient to properly lubricate the pump....and it begins to heat up.....at some point the Thermal Switch closes and shuts off the pump....end of that problem....but you would get a Cockpit indication of a Pump Failure.
Am I right about the Thermal Switch?
How long can you fly once the Transfer Pumps cease to pull Fuel from the Main Tank and you are left with only the contents of the Supply Tanks?
If 20 Minutes is the advertised limit to run the Pumps without any fuel passing through them.....why is leaving them ON a problem?
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SASless,
Why are you asking me questions, getting an answer, then revealing your own knowledge? I respect your history, I'm providing answers to those that seem not to have knowledge in this area, but I'll be frank here, you're starting to wind me up. If you know more about the subject than me, fine, state that as being so and don't ask me questions you already know you know the anwer to. You're without doubt a big player on here, and someone many can learn from. don't spoil it by trying to belittle someone who is genuinely trying to help others.
Why are you asking me questions, getting an answer, then revealing your own knowledge? I respect your history, I'm providing answers to those that seem not to have knowledge in this area, but I'll be frank here, you're starting to wind me up. If you know more about the subject than me, fine, state that as being so and don't ask me questions you already know you know the anwer to. You're without doubt a big player on here, and someone many can learn from. don't spoil it by trying to belittle someone who is genuinely trying to help others.
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Legal theatre
Tandem,
I'd say that the FAI/inquest is a little less theatrical than a trial, since the sheriff/coroner is seeking to find the cause of death without any direct monetary or criminal jeopardy hanging over the process. He/she can control which witnesses testify, and who is allowed to question them. Individuals' styles of managing the process vary, and the atmosphere can be very different from case to case.
If it came to a civil trial for compensation, then all parties are going to be pushing their own agenda, with the plaintiffs trying to blame the richest defendant, and the defendants typically trying to blame the poorest - the crew. If all are decent and sensible, then it should be more economical for all to reach a settlement by arbitration.
The AAIB's word will usually carry a great deal of weight with the arbitrator in setting up the landscape for this process.
I'd say that the FAI/inquest is a little less theatrical than a trial, since the sheriff/coroner is seeking to find the cause of death without any direct monetary or criminal jeopardy hanging over the process. He/she can control which witnesses testify, and who is allowed to question them. Individuals' styles of managing the process vary, and the atmosphere can be very different from case to case.
If it came to a civil trial for compensation, then all parties are going to be pushing their own agenda, with the plaintiffs trying to blame the richest defendant, and the defendants typically trying to blame the poorest - the crew. If all are decent and sensible, then it should be more economical for all to reach a settlement by arbitration.
The AAIB's word will usually carry a great deal of weight with the arbitrator in setting up the landscape for this process.