UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
LOL Insurance
I'm sure those of you close to the hub are aware that one of your compatriots is 'unwell' currently. He is trying to sift through the small print and minutiae regarding his LOL. My thoughts are with him at this time.
Having been round this buoy personally and also with several others over the years (sadly without much progress being made it would seem), I keep pointing out the usual "gottcha's" with LOL in general.
I understand that as everyone (stand fast the MET
) is novating to NPAS, this is probably the first and last chance to respond to the ambiguity that exists between the standard LOL's out there and the role you have as SPIFR police drivers.
My message is this:
IF your extant policy states that your "Occupation" is PILOT; then the LOL will, in 85% of cases prove to be invalid. For further information - PM me as it is not ideal here on the web.
Having been round this buoy personally and also with several others over the years (sadly without much progress being made it would seem), I keep pointing out the usual "gottcha's" with LOL in general.
I understand that as everyone (stand fast the MET
) is novating to NPAS, this is probably the first and last chance to respond to the ambiguity that exists between the standard LOL's out there and the role you have as SPIFR police drivers. My message is this:
IF your extant policy states that your "Occupation" is PILOT; then the LOL will, in 85% of cases prove to be invalid. For further information - PM me as it is not ideal here on the web.
Lord Stevens.... ah yes he knows a lot about everything.
As some aware chappie has already suggested in the paper his every word is devalued by the fact that he was assigned his task by a Labour Government so the current government will take not a blind bit of notice even if every word is true [which I doubt].
Perhaps we should ask the Scottish plod how they feel about all their forces being distilled into one? Is it better after 6 months or worse? Do we need to ask?
That must make it awkward for the Scottish ACPOS now they only have one Chief Constable....... meetings in a phone box in the high street now I guess? Maybe they have AGMs attended by retired/sacked officers....
Some of the forces in England and Wales could perhaps go, but to what end? Certainly the stack of officers at the top of the pile will not get any smaller, ACPO would simply call a Chief Constable an ACC and pay the same rate. Some of the smaller people will go... but some of them can and are streamlined between forces now.
It would just be nice if the officers at the bottom of the pile were left to get on with it and stay in a place long enough to know a lot more about it!
As some aware chappie has already suggested in the paper his every word is devalued by the fact that he was assigned his task by a Labour Government so the current government will take not a blind bit of notice even if every word is true [which I doubt].
Perhaps we should ask the Scottish plod how they feel about all their forces being distilled into one? Is it better after 6 months or worse? Do we need to ask?
That must make it awkward for the Scottish ACPOS now they only have one Chief Constable....... meetings in a phone box in the high street now I guess? Maybe they have AGMs attended by retired/sacked officers....
Some of the forces in England and Wales could perhaps go, but to what end? Certainly the stack of officers at the top of the pile will not get any smaller, ACPO would simply call a Chief Constable an ACC and pay the same rate. Some of the smaller people will go... but some of them can and are streamlined between forces now.
It would just be nice if the officers at the bottom of the pile were left to get on with it and stay in a place long enough to know a lot more about it!
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You're all missing the bigger picture. The helicopter operation comes out of the police annual budget.
In the case of the boat in Norwich I would imagine the whole operation cost much more than the value of the damage to the boat which the insurance company will sort out.
TWOC chases always cost more than the value of the vehicle. They often are the catalyst for someone having a serious accident.
The problem with having a helicopter operation is having to justify the cost. If it sits with the crew for days doing nothing management will worry it will be taken away.
Given all the airtime on various police camera action footage I see the same old waste of public money.
Most of the time it's Groundhog day with very rare occasions where the cost/result can be justified.
Like the rest of the public I want to see more plods on the beat instead of offices or toys.
We need one UK police force with more coppers and less management.
In the case of the boat in Norwich I would imagine the whole operation cost much more than the value of the damage to the boat which the insurance company will sort out.
TWOC chases always cost more than the value of the vehicle. They often are the catalyst for someone having a serious accident.
The problem with having a helicopter operation is having to justify the cost. If it sits with the crew for days doing nothing management will worry it will be taken away.
Given all the airtime on various police camera action footage I see the same old waste of public money.
Most of the time it's Groundhog day with very rare occasions where the cost/result can be justified.
Like the rest of the public I want to see more plods on the beat instead of offices or toys.
We need one UK police force with more coppers and less management.
YOP - you'll probably find the truth is that there is plenty that they CANT show on telly.
You also might find that most 'car chases' end before the helicopter crew put down their cups of tea. It'll be the serious ones intent on driving recklessly that the helicopter will catch up with and its not the helicopter that prolongues the pursuit (aside from Emmerdale) as there will be plenty of cars behind the culprit at this point. As you will see from TV - the helicopter comes in handy at the end of the pursuit when the guy bails out and gives officers the run around. Are you saying we just shouldnt bother? What if the driver has legged it because he's one of the norfolks most wanted boat thiefs?
How many square metres can three bobbies cover/contain on the ground?
Small asset or large asset - if its been nicked and theres a good chance of finding it (i.e large open areas such as fens) then surely every asset should be utilised?
You also might find that most 'car chases' end before the helicopter crew put down their cups of tea. It'll be the serious ones intent on driving recklessly that the helicopter will catch up with and its not the helicopter that prolongues the pursuit (aside from Emmerdale) as there will be plenty of cars behind the culprit at this point. As you will see from TV - the helicopter comes in handy at the end of the pursuit when the guy bails out and gives officers the run around. Are you saying we just shouldnt bother? What if the driver has legged it because he's one of the norfolks most wanted boat thiefs?
How many square metres can three bobbies cover/contain on the ground?
Small asset or large asset - if its been nicked and theres a good chance of finding it (i.e large open areas such as fens) then surely every asset should be utilised?
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It's not rocket science to find nicked stuff in the fens and you do not need a helicopter to locate those responsible.
Helicopters,Chief Constables,deputy chiefs and police commissioners are milking the money that should be spent on proper policing.
The way things are going it will soon be just a case of phoning your insurance company and ignoring the police.
Helicopters,Chief Constables,deputy chiefs and police commissioners are milking the money that should be spent on proper policing.
The way things are going it will soon be just a case of phoning your insurance company and ignoring the police.
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That's just the problem, the old days of police ops taking place in known and familiar territory have gone, The South East region means you can be in peterborough one minute and Portsmouth the next (well, an hour or so later). It's not familiar anymore, and to make it worse, the fuel options have been reduced as well.
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Art of Flight;
That's just the problem, the old days of police ops taking place in known and familiar territory have gone, The South East region means you can be in peterborough one minute and Portsmouth the next (well, an hour or so later). It's not familiar anymore, and to make it worse, the fuel options have been reduced as well.
That's just the problem, the old days of police ops taking place in known and familiar territory have gone, The South East region means you can be in peterborough one minute and Portsmouth the next (well, an hour or so later). It's not familiar anymore, and to make it worse, the fuel options have been reduced as well.
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whitehead06
It isn't the end of police aviation that is being advocated but it is not unreasonable to suggest that fewer better equipped helicopters might be a better option. Comparatively few crimes are prevented or solved using helicopters and it is right to question whether the half billion pounds or more invested in police aviation represents value for money or would be better invested in improved resources on the ground. Do we really need over twenty police helicopters scattered across the country, or could half a dozen fully specified and crewed models do a better job if strategically based? Since our cities seem to be blanketed by CCTV cameras, is there any point flying police helicopters regularly over densely populated areas? Regular ground patrols by uniformed officers and marked police vehicles can be just as much of a deterrent to criminal activity as hovering over a housing estate in the middle of the night. Trouble is, seems there's no money in the budget to provide proper coppers any more! Something has to give somewhere. Everybody is expected to do more with fewer resources and police aviation is very big ticket item compared to virtually every other branch of the police service with the possible exception of marine support. We could make a start by returning police to being a force and not a service, since that's the one thing they have failed to deliver since the term was introduced. (rant over)
It isn't the end of police aviation that is being advocated but it is not unreasonable to suggest that fewer better equipped helicopters might be a better option. Comparatively few crimes are prevented or solved using helicopters and it is right to question whether the half billion pounds or more invested in police aviation represents value for money or would be better invested in improved resources on the ground. Do we really need over twenty police helicopters scattered across the country, or could half a dozen fully specified and crewed models do a better job if strategically based? Since our cities seem to be blanketed by CCTV cameras, is there any point flying police helicopters regularly over densely populated areas? Regular ground patrols by uniformed officers and marked police vehicles can be just as much of a deterrent to criminal activity as hovering over a housing estate in the middle of the night. Trouble is, seems there's no money in the budget to provide proper coppers any more! Something has to give somewhere. Everybody is expected to do more with fewer resources and police aviation is very big ticket item compared to virtually every other branch of the police service with the possible exception of marine support. We could make a start by returning police to being a force and not a service, since that's the one thing they have failed to deliver since the term was introduced. (rant over)
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G0uli, you seem to be under the impression that police helicopters fly on patrol and / or hover over built up areas as a routine deterrent measure. Perhaps you could add some actual evidence of this.
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ShyTorque
I can only speak from experience in the Met, but helicopters were routinely tasked to monitor marches, football match crowds, the Notting Hill Carnival, civil disturbance, car pursuits, searches of woodland and scheduled tasking for aerial mapping and other purposes. Since it was London, these were all pretty much daily occurences. As to hovering over housing estates at night, if the helicopter was airborne and available, they would frequently assist ground units in the pursuit of suspects through housing estates and this often entailed hovering over or circling a fixed point on the ground until the suspects were apprehended or lost, which might be half an hour or more. The residents of the posher parts frequently rang to complain and were told to address their complaints to the CAA. The CAA would refer the complainants back to the police and so it went round and round. Admittedly this was a good few years ago and helicopters have generally become a lot quieter and can operate at greater distances from the ground. London is a difficult zone for helicopter ops generally because of the control zone height restrictions for all the local airports. I doubt that things have changed a great deal over the years. There have been comments elsewhere in the thread by others that suggest that flying police helicopters is a way of "showing the flag" to residents of certain areas. As to whether those comments are true, or in any way an official policy, I haven't any knowledge.
Thinking about this a bit further, the pattern of criminal activity across any city would tend to result in police helicopters returning more frequently to particular areas. This may well give the residents of those areas the impression that they were being deliberately singled out for harrassment by police helicopters. Just a thought.
I can only speak from experience in the Met, but helicopters were routinely tasked to monitor marches, football match crowds, the Notting Hill Carnival, civil disturbance, car pursuits, searches of woodland and scheduled tasking for aerial mapping and other purposes. Since it was London, these were all pretty much daily occurences. As to hovering over housing estates at night, if the helicopter was airborne and available, they would frequently assist ground units in the pursuit of suspects through housing estates and this often entailed hovering over or circling a fixed point on the ground until the suspects were apprehended or lost, which might be half an hour or more. The residents of the posher parts frequently rang to complain and were told to address their complaints to the CAA. The CAA would refer the complainants back to the police and so it went round and round. Admittedly this was a good few years ago and helicopters have generally become a lot quieter and can operate at greater distances from the ground. London is a difficult zone for helicopter ops generally because of the control zone height restrictions for all the local airports. I doubt that things have changed a great deal over the years. There have been comments elsewhere in the thread by others that suggest that flying police helicopters is a way of "showing the flag" to residents of certain areas. As to whether those comments are true, or in any way an official policy, I haven't any knowledge.
Thinking about this a bit further, the pattern of criminal activity across any city would tend to result in police helicopters returning more frequently to particular areas. This may well give the residents of those areas the impression that they were being deliberately singled out for harrassment by police helicopters. Just a thought.
Last edited by G0ULI; 29th Dec 2013 at 02:12. Reason: Additional comment
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G0uli, you seem to be under the impression that police helicopters fly on patrol and / or hover over built up areas as a routine deterrent measure. Perhaps you could add some actual evidence of this.
Since NPAS, the days of the local officers in the aircraft knowing when and where activities are likely to take place and being in the air at those times, have gone. Was the ac in a particular area an effective deterrent? ... who knows. Was the aircraft airborne when these local knowledge jobs kicked off? ... for sure.
Of course, positive activities such as this, I would imagine, really only apply to the more urban forces. As for complaints, speaking from an urban unit point of view, flying complaints funnily enough, seem to be another rural thing.
Tr; You're welcome, that was the point of that particular post.
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G0uli, there is no evidence that police helicopters carry out routine patrols as a deterrent. All the examples you provide were responses to specific task requirements.
If the police helicopter were not available, how else could those tasks be carried out and at what cost?
M00ds, the UK CAA mandate a requirement for police helicopters to carry either stabilisation/autopilot or two pilots. Has been for at least a dozen years or so. The police authorities chose new aircraft over two pilots because the new generation of aircraft (then the MD Explorer or the EC135) were already fitted with an AP.
If the police helicopter were not available, how else could those tasks be carried out and at what cost?
M00ds, the UK CAA mandate a requirement for police helicopters to carry either stabilisation/autopilot or two pilots. Has been for at least a dozen years or so. The police authorities chose new aircraft over two pilots because the new generation of aircraft (then the MD Explorer or the EC135) were already fitted with an AP.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 29th Dec 2013 at 08:18.
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G0uli, there is no evidence that police helicopters carry out routine patrols as a deterrent.
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Sid, thanks for the confirmation. It's important to emphasise that point. The unit I worked for was a joint forces one and we never did "patrol" due to correct management of the resource. We could easily overfly the maximum allowed costed hours on genuine task request responses.
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I saw where you were going Shy, however based on the previously mentioned local knowledge, the patrols were indeed effective. That effectiveness can be based on the tasks attended as a consequence. In addition to monitoring the OCU channels, having officers on the ground calling us up directly was a fantastic way of utilising the ac. 'I see you're in the area, can you help us out', is what the job is all about isn't it?
I would suggest that the patrols, certainly in our case, were an absolute correct management of the resource. The problem with a national outlook is that it doen't work locally.
As for the deterrent factor, that cannot be quantified.
Surely that problem, especially with joint or rural forces and/or national resources, is more to do with transit times than time on task.
W06 said earlier, "The sum total of the preceeding posts adds up to the end of Police Aviation. Not one mention of the whole raison detre of Police Air ops, catching or stopping criminal activity."
As the famous 'NPAS Downfall' video shown at the symposium says, "We'll only ever get to Mispers".
The unit I worked for was a joint forces one and we never did "patrol" due to correct management of the resource.
As for the deterrent factor, that cannot be quantified.
We could easily overfly the maximum allowed costed hours on genuine task request responses
W06 said earlier, "The sum total of the preceeding posts adds up to the end of Police Aviation. Not one mention of the whole raison detre of Police Air ops, catching or stopping criminal activity."
As the famous 'NPAS Downfall' video shown at the symposium says, "We'll only ever get to Mispers".
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In the present economic climate, Sid, you sound like you're putting a barrel in each foot.
We were not allowed to overfly the hours allocated per year, endex. Money was very tight even though ours was a brand new unit; later in my time there as chief plot I was constantly reminded of the fact. So we didn't take off without a specific task in mind. Obviously, if we were airborne and an ad hoc task request came in, we would respond if it was justified. Thankfully the unit was based fairly centrally to the main requirement so transit times were not often the major issue. However, it's fair to say that some tasks were seen as unrealistic in a practical timescale and these were usually not attended. The only way around the latter problem is more, locally based helicopters - the very opposite of the present regime under NPAS. Which imho is a retrograde step, done merely to slash the budget.
We were not allowed to overfly the hours allocated per year, endex. Money was very tight even though ours was a brand new unit; later in my time there as chief plot I was constantly reminded of the fact. So we didn't take off without a specific task in mind. Obviously, if we were airborne and an ad hoc task request came in, we would respond if it was justified. Thankfully the unit was based fairly centrally to the main requirement so transit times were not often the major issue. However, it's fair to say that some tasks were seen as unrealistic in a practical timescale and these were usually not attended. The only way around the latter problem is more, locally based helicopters - the very opposite of the present regime under NPAS. Which imho is a retrograde step, done merely to slash the budget.
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Are we here to 'insert role of police ac here' or to save money. If it's the latter, we might as well shut up shop now. Effective use of ac will cost money, but this is balanced with ac being utilised most effectively. Ineffective use of ac costs more, with little, poor or no results!
We never overflew the hours, the patrols were local intelligence based and we had good results, that's good management. The system was so effective we were usually getting the camera on locations and monitoring 'offenders' and directing resources while en-route to the location. First hand information direct from the officer on scene with no postcodes, delay in passing task requests or long winded 3rd hand info.
Saying of the week .... 'Does anyone miss the horses anymore?'
We never overflew the hours, the patrols were local intelligence based and we had good results, that's good management. The system was so effective we were usually getting the camera on locations and monitoring 'offenders' and directing resources while en-route to the location. First hand information direct from the officer on scene with no postcodes, delay in passing task requests or long winded 3rd hand info.
Saying of the week .... 'Does anyone miss the horses anymore?'
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'Does anyone miss the horses anymore?'
But it seems there is little, or no scope for the air support budget to be increased to provide two pilot operations, in any form. At least, not in the forseeable future.