UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 3
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
One feared dead after car driven off Beachy Head | UK news | The Guardian
Can someone confirm where this Sussex ac had to come from. I always thought it a shame Shoreham was closed down. It would have been well within the 20 minute circle for this incident, I wonder if 20 mins and a more locally familiar crew would have a made a difference.
Eastbourne to;
Redhill 20 mins
Benson 40 mins
Boreham 35 mins
Shoreham 10 mins
(Direct line, flying time point to point @ 110 kts)
Maybe someone should give thought as to where the other 2% might be when they need an air service 
The other 2%... like in this incident;
Time to start listening and less of the flannel;
BBC News - Sussex concerns over police helicopter response times
Effective 
One feared dead after car driven off Beachy Head
Police helicopter locates vehicle off East Sussex coast but incoming tide hampers rescue efforts
Don Ellis, senior officer at Birling Gap lifeboat station, said the inshore lifeboat had been unable at first to find the car, which was eventually located by the Sussex police helicopter.
He said he believed only one person was inside the vehicle but rescue efforts had been hampered by the incoming tide.
Police helicopter locates vehicle off East Sussex coast but incoming tide hampers rescue efforts
Don Ellis, senior officer at Birling Gap lifeboat station, said the inshore lifeboat had been unable at first to find the car, which was eventually located by the Sussex police helicopter.
He said he believed only one person was inside the vehicle but rescue efforts had been hampered by the incoming tide.
Eastbourne to;
Redhill 20 mins
Benson 40 mins
Boreham 35 mins
Shoreham 10 mins
(Direct line, flying time point to point @ 110 kts)
• NPAS will provide an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes.
The other 2%... like in this incident;
Time to start listening and less of the flannel;
BBC News - Sussex concerns over police helicopter response times
"At the moment the whole of Sussex gets a response within 20 minutes and a lot of areas are less than that," he said. (Bob Brown Sussex Fed)
"But in East Sussex 300,000 residents are going to be outside of that area and it will be more like 30 minutes to get there.
"This includes Beachy Head, which is an area that attracts a lot of attention, unfortunately, during the year."
He said the helicopter was extremely important to trace missing people in rural areas as well as catching criminals.
A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers said: "The National Police Air Service is not merely a cost saving exercise.
"While the current service is capable of doing its day job, artificial boundaries have meant that helicopters are restricted to operating within their own force area or consortia.
"A truly national, borderless service will ensure effective coverage of urban and rural areas."
"But in East Sussex 300,000 residents are going to be outside of that area and it will be more like 30 minutes to get there.
"This includes Beachy Head, which is an area that attracts a lot of attention, unfortunately, during the year."
He said the helicopter was extremely important to trace missing people in rural areas as well as catching criminals.
A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers said: "The National Police Air Service is not merely a cost saving exercise.
"While the current service is capable of doing its day job, artificial boundaries have meant that helicopters are restricted to operating within their own force area or consortia.
"A truly national, borderless service will ensure effective coverage of urban and rural areas."
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What the heck is going on ???
Why would you steal the god damn log book??
Why would you steal the god damn log book??
Why would it have been stolen ?
One can only imagine that there might have been something in it,
that someone didn't want someone else to become aware of
?Sussex - the videos, facts, and response times quoted speak for themselves,
as do the ACPO spokesman's comment (I wonder who that was
) :
"The National Police Air Service is not merely a cost saving exercise.
It was originally a plan to provide a more effective service at a reduced cost - nationally,
but it now seems to be attracting more and more criticism
( by those that have not yet been silenced because they are now part of it,
and to criticse their employers would not do them any favours
),for failing to achieve either of those original objectives.
I stand to be corrected however - so come on, let's have some real life examples
of how joining NPAS has provided a more effective service,
or has resulted in any cost savings - anyone ?
I believe that only one force in southern Wales has not 'signed up' to NPAS.
I suspect that the Helicopter Life statement actually meant 'joined.'
There are several still outside NPAS - it has passed them by for a number of reasons - including complexity.
NPAS was pretty much invented in a northern office of an ACPO ranking person [who is unlikely therefore not to sign his current force to the club] without full appreciation of the complexities created by 30 odd police air units each with their own idea of how to run a police air unit, each with their own contracts and HR departments to sign up the aircraft, maintenance, crew provision and real estate.
Worst case there might have been 100 different models to squeeze into one common set up....... even so it was probably dozens of complex negotiations.
And of course the PLAN was announced from a southern office of a different ACPO ranking person who equally had no real appreciation of the many differences various ACPO ranks had created with their toys so what is emerging is a menu of things which fall outside the desk top plan. Basing at fogbound airfields went by the board for a start.....
Not a job I would relish.
And as for moving the base from Shoreham [to Dunsfold then Redhill] surely you cannot be serious that a 'good' base for any of these terrestrial resources should be on a beach where 50% of your radius of action is water! [buit I am not saying Redhill is good]
I suspect that the Helicopter Life statement actually meant 'joined.'
There are several still outside NPAS - it has passed them by for a number of reasons - including complexity.
NPAS was pretty much invented in a northern office of an ACPO ranking person [who is unlikely therefore not to sign his current force to the club] without full appreciation of the complexities created by 30 odd police air units each with their own idea of how to run a police air unit, each with their own contracts and HR departments to sign up the aircraft, maintenance, crew provision and real estate.
Worst case there might have been 100 different models to squeeze into one common set up....... even so it was probably dozens of complex negotiations.
And of course the PLAN was announced from a southern office of a different ACPO ranking person who equally had no real appreciation of the many differences various ACPO ranks had created with their toys so what is emerging is a menu of things which fall outside the desk top plan. Basing at fogbound airfields went by the board for a start.....
Not a job I would relish.
And as for moving the base from Shoreham [to Dunsfold then Redhill] surely you cannot be serious that a 'good' base for any of these terrestrial resources should be on a beach where 50% of your radius of action is water! [buit I am not saying Redhill is good]
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
And as for moving the base from Shoreham [to Dunsfold then Redhill] surely you cannot be serious that a 'good' base for any of these terrestrial resources should be on a beach where 50% of your radius of action is water! [buit I am not saying Redhill is good]
Variation of an old question...How much money does a life save?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
There are NO forces that have joined in S.Wales. AFAIK Dyfed Powys, South Wales and Gwent have all rejected the NPAS proposal.
Veronica Salt
How far is Cardiff from Filton?
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You are so right SilsoeSid.
And just wait until NPAS aggregate their purchasing.
You will see, in the years ahead, a rather large order being placed with AW.
Just remember that I predicted it in 2013!
And just wait until NPAS aggregate their purchasing.
You will see, in the years ahead, a rather large order being placed with AW.
Just remember that I predicted it in 2013!
Dyfed-Powys is the only force to have said 'No'...... the other two in south Wales are just holding out on the detail.
As I said Redhill is not perfect but right on the coast is imperfect for 50% of your missions..... no matter how many people are jumping off the cliff. That is why SAR is usually placed next to the sea..... why transit overland for 90% of your primary mission...?
As I said Redhill is not perfect but right on the coast is imperfect for 50% of your missions..... no matter how many people are jumping off the cliff. That is why SAR is usually placed next to the sea..... why transit overland for 90% of your primary mission...?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Dyfed-Powys is the only force to have said 'No'...... the other two in south Wales are just holding out on the detail.
The detail SW are waiting for is the present contract to run out!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
PANews, may I suggest you look at a map and apply a 20 minute circle around Shoreham.
Yes 50% may well be offshore, however the 50% onshore covers the coastline from Portsmouth to Lydd around to Maidstone and Aldershot with a northern point up to the M25. The rest of Kent can be covered within a maximum of a further 10 minutes.
Have you noticed how the South East Region as it is, doesn't really cover the South East of the country!
With my interpretation of the SE of the country being the area; Brighton, North to London and East to the Thames Estuary, it's even stranger to me that the South East Region does't even have an aircraft in it!
As far as my previous, 'How much money does a life save' statement goes, how much money do we waste ... (blah, same old misper policy rant)
Wouldn't it be more effective to base a helicopter in a particular area of the country where the genuine 'cries for help' occur, on a regular basis? Lets not forget that this area also has a lot of accidents where the helicopter is/was vital, as was the case recently.
That line of coast may well be the demarcation of your 'loss of 50% of operational effectiveness' for an ac based there, however if the ac can be used to actually locate & save people that have gone to the country's best known and most used suicide spot to actually do something, then that imho is truly effective use. Lets not forget other crime also occurs round that part of the country, its the biggest gateway into the country and that especially during this time of year, the population increases greatly.
Yes 50% may well be offshore, however the 50% onshore covers the coastline from Portsmouth to Lydd around to Maidstone and Aldershot with a northern point up to the M25. The rest of Kent can be covered within a maximum of a further 10 minutes.
Have you noticed how the South East Region as it is, doesn't really cover the South East of the country!
With my interpretation of the SE of the country being the area; Brighton, North to London and East to the Thames Estuary, it's even stranger to me that the South East Region does't even have an aircraft in it!
As far as my previous, 'How much money does a life save' statement goes, how much money do we waste ... (blah, same old misper policy rant)
Wouldn't it be more effective to base a helicopter in a particular area of the country where the genuine 'cries for help' occur, on a regular basis? Lets not forget that this area also has a lot of accidents where the helicopter is/was vital, as was the case recently.
That line of coast may well be the demarcation of your 'loss of 50% of operational effectiveness' for an ac based there, however if the ac can be used to actually locate & save people that have gone to the country's best known and most used suicide spot to actually do something, then that imho is truly effective use. Lets not forget other crime also occurs round that part of the country, its the biggest gateway into the country and that especially during this time of year, the population increases greatly.
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I would be interested to know, of all the people that we save from themselves (Off cliffs etc) how many go on to do the deed undetected or elsewhere on another day. Does anyone have any figures on this?
Wagging Finger
A lot of research has been done in the US which shows that the number who go on to take their own life is very, very low - certainly single figure percentages.
If I can dig out the research I'll post it but if you are involved in saving someone at that very difficult point in their life there is a very high chance that you have saved them for good.
A lot of research has been done in the US which shows that the number who go on to take their own life is very, very low - certainly single figure percentages.
If I can dig out the research I'll post it but if you are involved in saving someone at that very difficult point in their life there is a very high chance that you have saved them for good.
Wagging Finger
I don't know the purpose behind your question but one of the studies that I mentioned is attached below and it shows that despite the higher rates of suicide in the group followed (survivors of suicide attempts on the Golden Gate Bridge) in relation to the general population, still about 90% do not die of suicide or by other violent means.
http://seattlefriends.org/files/seiden_study.pdf
I don't know the purpose behind your question but one of the studies that I mentioned is attached below and it shows that despite the higher rates of suicide in the group followed (survivors of suicide attempts on the Golden Gate Bridge) in relation to the general population, still about 90% do not die of suicide or by other violent means.
http://seattlefriends.org/files/seiden_study.pdf
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I don't know the purpose behind your question
WF
You are correct, MAS had no contract in place when the troubles struck either South Yorkshire or Yorshire AA.
The current work relates to a post event 'contract' and the delays are part of that experience.
I am trying to clarify whether it is spares or the log book causing the trouble.
The current work relates to a post event 'contract' and the delays are part of that experience.
I am trying to clarify whether it is spares or the log book causing the trouble.
