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Review into North Sea offshore helicopter operations announced by CAA

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Review into North Sea offshore helicopter operations announced by CAA

Old 27th Feb 2014, 17:10
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Question

Who on earth considers STASS a flight safety hazard? Why?
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Old 27th Feb 2014, 17:39
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Griffo ever the Rebel....always causing trouble.

Laddy...you must cease and desist....this injecting logic and commonsense into such an argument is patently unfair, uncalled for, and absolutely insulting to those who craft Rules, Regulations, and Policies for a living rather than Walking the Walk instead of merely Talking the Talk.
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Old 27th Feb 2014, 19:51
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Did anyone say that STASS is a flight safety hazard?

I know that some pilots do not wish to do STASS training - in fact some do not wish to do basic HUET!

There is a training risk with STASS that should not be dismissed.

On a personal level, give me STASS tomorrow and I'll be a much happier pilot!
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Old 27th Feb 2014, 20:12
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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STASS

Shell think Pilot STASS is a snag hazard. I've had it in audit findings. It's not against SGRAO but it is always a sticking point.
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Old 27th Feb 2014, 20:56
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Paragraph 2.2 begins the UK Civilian Experience.....and cites the 1995 CAA Study. What is quoted there is not very flattering. Look where we find ourselves today....18 Years later.


http://traktoria.org/files/helicopte.../AG-341-02.pdf

Comments that support Griffo's fondness for such kinds of Breathing Systems....



They concluded that HEED had facilitated underwater escape. They reported that there were 25 individuals who reported that they would not have survived without an emergency breathing system. EBS users consistently reported a calming effect replacing the post-impact panic frequently experienced with the initial in-rush of water.

So much so, that the Marine Corps were seriously considering training their ground troops and supplying units to those proceeding on over-water missions.

Like the soon to come into service Canadian design, the US Navy was modifying the system so that the compressed air bottle was an integral part of the vest. An air hose was added so that only the regulator / mouthpiece need be located, retrieved and placed in the mouth.

Last edited by SASless; 27th Feb 2014 at 21:09.
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Old 27th Feb 2014, 22:04
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Section 5 of this document covers training with STASS. Interesting feedback from participants.

http://uk.opito.com/uk/library/docum...exit_repot.pdf
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 06:44
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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It occurs to me that many UKCS offshore workers will have been around long enough to have used short-term air supply devices in the fire part of their survival course. These were cylinders with nominally 4min30s of air for use in smoke-filled areas. Clearly, these are different from the rebreathers with air supply but possibly similar to other devices that are potential solutions.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 07:16
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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'Shell think Pilot STASS is a snag hazard.'


Well that tops the irony league table for this year. The item of equipment designed to help you free yourself from snags is considered a snagging hazard. Let's hope they've got big lungs and warm water in which to ditch.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 11:08
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Haha, as usual, not everything on here is awfully well researched. Was just chatting with an old navy bud if mine, who flies for Shell in Brunei, where the pilots carry them!

That having been said, not sure how the pax will squeeze a STAS onto that fat thing they wear now and still get out of a window. I guess they will need new LSJs to go with the new EBS.

And all this will be done in 7 weeks? Hmmmmm
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 11:59
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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jimf, you could be right there, every little helps. One of the best things for those afraid of water could even be a scuba diving course but it is unrealistic (not sarcastic ment). On the Nutec courses I have been on, the platform workers are not trained in short-term air supply devices (only the firefighters).

The problem with the HEED (where you get around 3-4 minuts of oxygen) is that it is a plus and a minus. A plus for the guys who can handle a chaotic situation, but not for those who have a tendency of panic in that situation. Many of the guys I fly out, don't like to fly in the first place, don't like to get their head under water (and turned around) and I really don't expect them to be able to handle the ditching properly. I see every time I am in the dunker.

HEED is not going to help these guys, it can have an adverse affect, where they try to remember what to do, in the right order; not being able to, and trying to use the HEED and relying on it, they are not holding their breath, and then it's over.....

I would certainly say that all pilots should have it, not only to get out (that's easy with our emergency exits), but that extra oxygen could give us an opportunity to dive and look for passengers, if the helicopter stays at the surface (which most do for while).

I have tried HEED, not sure if I can recommend it for ALL the passengers.

Last edited by Tango123; 28th Feb 2014 at 12:18.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 12:41
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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That would be very decent of you, but I believe the teaching has always been GET OUT AND STAY OUT! As bad as you may feel you will be neither trained, equipped or mentally attuned enough to safely become a diver and go looking for trapped passengers.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 13:06
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Tango123,

I'm with VSF. I may hang around a bit to try and make sure all the pax are out, but once I am out I am never ever going to go back in.

Search for the loss of Lynx XZ668 in the Adriatic in 1995 as an idea of why.

OF
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 13:56
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Everytime during the briefing before going to the dunker training, if the instructor doesn't say it, I say to the offshore workers on the course:" don't expect that the pilots will help you out, if the cabin is full of water. You have to know the procedure and get out by yourself."

But if I end up in a situation like the pume still floating but upside down BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Helicopter survivor offers thanks
I hope that I would anything to try to open the doors, and getting acess that way to the cabin to check for pax.

Not trying to be a hero, but like anyone else in the cockpit, I do feel a big responsebility for the pax onboard.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 16:39
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Don't pax already use rebreathers - Hybrid versions already exist that contain compressed air and curry gas? - ie no holding of breath required, no additional devices blah blah
Recent Safety Notice highlighted that some pax didn't know how it worked......they've all been trained and information on system is plentiful.
If they choose to treat their PPE with such regard that is their lookout - I just hope they don't block any exits whilst they suddenly realise that all those repetitive safety videos were for reason.......

Passengers already appear to be well cared for, can we just concentrate on us chaps and chappettes up the front who have been ignored since Pontius Pilate flew?

Last edited by EESDL; 28th Feb 2014 at 17:42.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 17:26
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EESDL
I thought pax use the LAPP jacket? - ie no holding of breath required, no additional devices blah blah
Recent Safety Notice highlighted that some pax didn't know how it worked......they've all been trained and information on system is plentiful.
If they choose to treat their PPE with such regard that is their lookout - I just hope they don't block any exits whilst they suddenly realise that all those repetitive safety videos were for reason.......

Passengers already appear to be well cared for, can we just concentrate on us chaps and chappettes up the front who have been ignored since Pontius Pilate flew?
"Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and thanks for flying with Whiteknuckle Airways. Just a reminder that if, as a result of the ineptitude of either the regulator or our training department you find yourselves up to your oxters in salt-water, you're on your own."
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 18:06
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Diginagain - you might very well have neatly summed up the current situation?
In the chopper I fly we cannot get into the back to assist our pax (who have EBS) - so yes, they are completely on their own.

You must fly one of the larger types where you can pop down the back to ensure the pax are using their EBS correctly and guide them to their 'nearest available exit' - whilst holding your breath.
I envy your capacity and wish you luck !
Lip service has been paid to realistic HUET training since day one.
Can I suggest that it is not the pax who, when they

"find yourselves up to your oxters in salt-water, you're on your own"

but the ill-equipped, minimally-trained pilots?

As you might have noticed -vast majority of Safety Review is not about preventing the crash/ditch but about survivability.
Anything in there about increased 'mandatory' flying training, improving monitoring skills.
Always laugh when I read that the ADF is preferred to my gps tablet and that crew EBS could be a 'snag hazard'

Heaven help us - or perhaps the CAA?
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 19:02
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EESDL View Post
... ...they've all been trained and information on system is plentiful. ...
I think you need to check your facts.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 22:08
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EESDL View Post
Lip service has been paid to realistic HUET training since day one.
Can I suggest that it is not the pax who, when they

"find yourselves up to your oxters in salt-water, you're on your own"

but the ill-equipped, minimally-trained pilots?
Agree with that first sentence EESDL. I flew as a pilot on the North Sea for 27 years from 1973 until 2000 and on only one occasion did my various employers require me to take part in HUET training. It was entirely voluntary otherwise.
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 09:00
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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@EESDL - I'm a passenger, albeit one with a thousand hours or so twin turbine helicopter.

I have some sympathy for the plight of the pilots who seem so ill-equipped, but it must be down to you as a collective to address those shortcomings. I have to wear PPE - and any safety professional will tell you that PPE should always be the last resort - as a result of events where the aircraft has ended-up in the oggin. I cannot speak for my colleagues, but I travel with careful consideration of where I am, and what I might need to do if it becomes necessary to escape.
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 11:02
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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unbelievable - been flying for over 30-years but relatively 'new' to NS flying - find it absolutely incredulous that not all passengers have access to any form of EBS. Packed in with interlocking knees etc etc anyone in the back without EBS or direct access to escape has my sympathy.
Well done CAA for realistically taking control back from numerous committees.

I took the advice offered here and asked around - beggars belief that, as a passenger, it is left to your employers' Risk Assessment whether or not you have a re-breather!! Did that assumption thing as our pax are so equipped.
Looks like 'we' have been very lucky not to have lost a greater number of pax. Money talks I guess -p even though we are talking miniscule fractions of overall costs :-(

Would have thought that prospect of 'negligence' cases would have encouraged better care for their employees....

This is a rumour network afterall
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