What Do You Think?
Thread Starter
What Do You Think?
Remember the Missouri EMS Helicopter Crash that killed all Aboard when the Pilot failed in carrying out an Autorotative Landing a Mile short of an airport in the daylight and good Weather?
I sit here just shaking my Head and wondering just this could happen!
Texting by helicopter pilot contributed to crash that killed 4, safety board says | OregonLive.com
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2013/AAR1302.pdf
I sit here just shaking my Head and wondering just this could happen!
Texting by helicopter pilot contributed to crash that killed 4, safety board says | OregonLive.com
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2013/AAR1302.pdf
Last edited by SASless; 23rd Sep 2013 at 21:31.
Thread Starter
Was Texting the real problem?
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Thomas coupling wrote:
And this is from the report:
Are the investigaters (sic) really that desperate that they can't find the real reason for the crash.
The NTSB determines that the probable causes of this accident were the pilot’s failure to confirm that the helicopter had adequate fuel on board to complete the mission before making the first departure, his improper decision to continue the mission and make a second departure after he became aware of a critically low fuel level, and his failure to successfully enter an autorotation when the engine lost power due to fuel exhaustion. Contributing to the accident NTSB were (1) the pilot’s distracted attention due to personal texting during safety-critical ground and flight operations, (2) his degraded performance due to fatigue, (3) the operator’s lack of a policy requiring that an operational control center specialist be notified of abnormal fuel situations, and (4) the lack of practice representative of an actual engine failure at cruise airspeed in the pilot’s autorotation training in the accident make and model helicopter.
Quite. The report never said texting was the 'real problem' but rather that it 'contributed' which seems reasonable.
This illustrates the 'lining up the holes' air accident analogy.
This illustrates the 'lining up the holes' air accident analogy.
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So we are capable of checking a map, changing radio stations, playing with GPS/ autopilot/ nav equipment, talking on radios, to control, other aircraft, ground crew, continually checking weather, looking out for other aircraft,.......
But we aren't capable of deciding if it is safe for us to check or make a txt. Sorry, but I have texts and phone calls coming and going all day, while flying or sitting in the office. The skill is in deciding what is important and what isn't.
But isn't that what we do every time we hop in the helicopter?
But we aren't capable of deciding if it is safe for us to check or make a txt. Sorry, but I have texts and phone calls coming and going all day, while flying or sitting in the office. The skill is in deciding what is important and what isn't.
But isn't that what we do every time we hop in the helicopter?
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SuperF
You've listed the items that you should be concentrating on to get from A to B safely. Any form of visual communication distracts. If your client needs to contact you it can be done through your operations desk VERBALLY so as not to saturate too many of your senses. It does only appear to be a matter of time before an accident is caused by someone texting at that moment or due to an adverse response of an aircraft system.
You've listed the items that you should be concentrating on to get from A to B safely. Any form of visual communication distracts. If your client needs to contact you it can be done through your operations desk VERBALLY so as not to saturate too many of your senses. It does only appear to be a matter of time before an accident is caused by someone texting at that moment or due to an adverse response of an aircraft system.
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Satsuma,
There have already been a number of accidents that have been put down to texting or phone calls at the wrong time, however they have also, like this one, been a part of the problem.
And the communication through the operations desk is all good in theory, however often in the places that I am working, that isn't possible. I often have to climb to an altitude where I can receive messages, and then check them later.
Like I said in my first post, the skill is in deciding what is important and what isn't. As my old instructor said to me, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. In that order.
There have already been a number of accidents that have been put down to texting or phone calls at the wrong time, however they have also, like this one, been a part of the problem.
And the communication through the operations desk is all good in theory, however often in the places that I am working, that isn't possible. I often have to climb to an altitude where I can receive messages, and then check them later.
Like I said in my first post, the skill is in deciding what is important and what isn't. As my old instructor said to me, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. In that order.
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And if you can guarantee me that EVERY pilot with a licence has that skill, then I'll concede that texting while flying isn't such a bad thing. How would you feel if your nearest and dearest went on a helicopter ride only to report back after the trip that the pilot seemed to spend more time texting (in this case his girlfriend) than he did flying the aircraft?
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Overheard the other day one rotary say to another rotary, "Go to 123.45".
Interesting to hear how much work some people can get done in a transit from A to B
a. When checking a map, changing radio, using GPS/autopilot/nav kit (I hope a TCAD is in that list), you are being spatially aware
b. Talking on a radio, by virtue of the fact the pressel is on the cyclic, you are hands on and still able to look out
c. By checking weather, as with looking out for other aircraft, you are looking out
All of these things are momentary actions, not requiring sole concentration for more than 2-3 seconds. Compare the time taken to change a radio frequency or confirm position on your map, to the time taken to read and reply to a text.
By texting, your whole attention is inside the ac looking at and operating your device. We humans simply do not have the ability to concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
Apple Toss
Interesting to hear how much work some people can get done in a transit from A to B
So we are capable of checking a map, changing radio stations, playing with GPS/ autopilot/ nav equipment, talking on radios, to control, other aircraft, ground crew, continually checking weather, looking out for other aircraft,.......
But we aren't capable of deciding if it is safe for us to check or make a txt. Sorry, but I have texts and phone calls coming and going all day, while flying or sitting in the office. The skill is in deciding what is important and what isn't.
But we aren't capable of deciding if it is safe for us to check or make a txt. Sorry, but I have texts and phone calls coming and going all day, while flying or sitting in the office. The skill is in deciding what is important and what isn't.
b. Talking on a radio, by virtue of the fact the pressel is on the cyclic, you are hands on and still able to look out
c. By checking weather, as with looking out for other aircraft, you are looking out
All of these things are momentary actions, not requiring sole concentration for more than 2-3 seconds. Compare the time taken to change a radio frequency or confirm position on your map, to the time taken to read and reply to a text.
By texting, your whole attention is inside the ac looking at and operating your device. We humans simply do not have the ability to concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
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Going on a helicopter ride would imply the pilot would be involved in conversation with the passengers. Probably in the form of a running commentary.
Another distraction from our duties of flying the aircraft, no?
If one had time on top of that to text, then I would agree that there's something odd going on.
That said, I've texted a deteriorating weather condition to my colleague who was readying to lift for a trip, whilst routing back to base with pax on board (we don't have an ops frequency to use and it wouldn't be picked up at that altitude and range combination anyway).
A commercial pilot should really be aware of when it may be appropriate and when it's not - for example in this case, a lot of the texting was done whilst sitting on the ground waiting for the passenger to load.
In my humble opinion, the texting had nearly nothing to do with the crash, as he should have organised a fuel uptake when he did his initial planning, instead of lying about fuel reserves throughout the flight. He may well have been just as distracted by the prospect of a night out with his lady whether he had been texting her or not...
Another distraction from our duties of flying the aircraft, no?
If one had time on top of that to text, then I would agree that there's something odd going on.
That said, I've texted a deteriorating weather condition to my colleague who was readying to lift for a trip, whilst routing back to base with pax on board (we don't have an ops frequency to use and it wouldn't be picked up at that altitude and range combination anyway).
A commercial pilot should really be aware of when it may be appropriate and when it's not - for example in this case, a lot of the texting was done whilst sitting on the ground waiting for the passenger to load.
In my humble opinion, the texting had nearly nothing to do with the crash, as he should have organised a fuel uptake when he did his initial planning, instead of lying about fuel reserves throughout the flight. He may well have been just as distracted by the prospect of a night out with his lady whether he had been texting her or not...
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RRPM
You can fly a helicopter while texting, talking, drinking or any number of other things. You cannot fly or control a helicopter without Rotor RPM. And without fuel it is hard to maintain altitude.
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You can fly a helicopter while texting, talking, drinking or any number of other things. You cannot fly or control a helicopter without Rotor RPM. And without fuel it is hard to maintain altitude.
(1) the pilot’s distracted attention due to personal texting during safety-critical ground and flight operations,
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All of these things are momentary actions, not requiring sole concentration for more than 2-3 seconds. Compare the time taken to change a radio frequency or confirm position on your map, to the time taken to read and reply to a text.
By texting, your whole attention is inside the ac looking at and operating your device. We humans simply do not have the ability to concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
By texting, your whole attention is inside the ac looking at and operating your device. We humans simply do not have the ability to concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
Note, SilsoeSid did not say we cannot do more than one thing at a time but that we can only concentrate on one thing at a time.
Texting in flight in very useful for many reasons but, in a single pilot operation and as I said originally, in its current form, does not contribute to flight safety. You don't have to agree but the evidence is mounting against single pilot in-flight texting.
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Satsuma,
I tell most people I know not to go flying in helicopters, as I know most of the pilots....
My nearest and dearest only fly with me!
No one has proven that texting has caused this accident, the guy just didn't have his mind on the job, and texting while flying pax is just rude, I don't do it. You owe them a duty of care, they have put their faith in u. If you want to add additional risks, do it solo, when you only endanger yourself.
I just can't see how a ban could possibly hope to work.
As soon as u place a ban, it creates all sorts of problems, can u txt while sitting in a cockpit rotors in motion? Some smart lawyer will tell u that if u are writing it in your logbook as flight time, then you are flying. So now cell phones off while in the cockpit! North Sea ops, that's probably a good idea.
I still think that lots of things can be done safely while flying. I've seen some guys take longer to read a map than I take to txt, and they have their head down wobbling all over the place!
As an example, why couldn't you have preset texts, which I do, nice short ones, like, on my way, or what ever, you have the phone set up, txt ready, lift off, climb out, once you hit what ever altitude so that u have phone coverage, hit the phone, hit send, done. My phone shows the latest txt on the front screen, so it takes less than 2-3 seconds to see if what has come in is k, short for ok, our standard reply, or if someone has written a novel.
If I'm close to the ground I don't even try it... No different to the phone ringing while hovering with my head out the door, I just let it ring, it goes to answer phone, next time I get a chance the screen will tell me who rang, then I can decide if I land and call them, if I hit call back while flying, or if it can wait till I'm in the office, or never...
And I think the decision not to put more fuel in, or to be to wrapped up in unimportant texting has more to do with it, than just texting.
And I can drink beer, watch rugby and check out the cheerleaders all at the same time, and I'm concentrating on all three, maybe I'm clever!
I tell most people I know not to go flying in helicopters, as I know most of the pilots....
My nearest and dearest only fly with me!
No one has proven that texting has caused this accident, the guy just didn't have his mind on the job, and texting while flying pax is just rude, I don't do it. You owe them a duty of care, they have put their faith in u. If you want to add additional risks, do it solo, when you only endanger yourself.
I just can't see how a ban could possibly hope to work.
As soon as u place a ban, it creates all sorts of problems, can u txt while sitting in a cockpit rotors in motion? Some smart lawyer will tell u that if u are writing it in your logbook as flight time, then you are flying. So now cell phones off while in the cockpit! North Sea ops, that's probably a good idea.
I still think that lots of things can be done safely while flying. I've seen some guys take longer to read a map than I take to txt, and they have their head down wobbling all over the place!
As an example, why couldn't you have preset texts, which I do, nice short ones, like, on my way, or what ever, you have the phone set up, txt ready, lift off, climb out, once you hit what ever altitude so that u have phone coverage, hit the phone, hit send, done. My phone shows the latest txt on the front screen, so it takes less than 2-3 seconds to see if what has come in is k, short for ok, our standard reply, or if someone has written a novel.
If I'm close to the ground I don't even try it... No different to the phone ringing while hovering with my head out the door, I just let it ring, it goes to answer phone, next time I get a chance the screen will tell me who rang, then I can decide if I land and call them, if I hit call back while flying, or if it can wait till I'm in the office, or never...
And I think the decision not to put more fuel in, or to be to wrapped up in unimportant texting has more to do with it, than just texting.
And I can drink beer, watch rugby and check out the cheerleaders all at the same time, and I'm concentrating on all three, maybe I'm clever!
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And I can drink beer, watch rugby and check out the cheerleaders all at the same time, and I'm concentrating on all three, maybe I'm clever!
In your case, you will end up spilling beer down your shirt and trousers, commenting to your fellow rugby viewing mates about all the bottoms in the scrum and asking why the cheerleaders high kick hasn't resulted in a conversion!
If that's being clever ... !