AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
S-92 Round Dial Airspeed Background
Colibri,
When the basic display format came up for debate on the 92, SA had been delivering S-76 aircraft with Sperry/Honeywell EFIS, which incorporated tape displays for airspeed and altitude. Fleet pilot response to those displays, along with our test pilot community group, was anything but polarized, either for or against, but the strong majority was in favor of the hybrid display which was certified and delivered. The discussions were long and spirited.
When the basic display format came up for debate on the 92, SA had been delivering S-76 aircraft with Sperry/Honeywell EFIS, which incorporated tape displays for airspeed and altitude. Fleet pilot response to those displays, along with our test pilot community group, was anything but polarized, either for or against, but the strong majority was in favor of the hybrid display which was certified and delivered. The discussions were long and spirited.
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To be perfectly sincere, and given the exponential nature of technological development - most especially in the area of MFD design and information processing, it should be but an option available at the press of a button as to which type of display a pilot prefers to use and not just one standard layout.
exponential nature of technological development
e.g. EC135P2 - new config file to change ALT BARO from in/hg to hPa.
7K Euro! As the avionics installed were slightly different than standard and the file had to be written, tested and released.
My experience from "tapes" and "round dials" is that "round dials" don't require you to read the numbers. The angle of the needle is enough.
nbl - you would have to ask them! But consider the sensitivities IF IF IF the cause is "pilot error". That will completely devastate the lives of the two pilots, even if there are plenty of ameliorating factors. Before publicly announcing that, there has to be a degree of certainty that can only be had once a proper investigation, including looking at the CVFDR, has taken place and all the factors (because there will be a number) are identified. So they don't announce it, but by not announcing any technical faults everyone in the industry gets the general idea.
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I wonder if we are looking at another Flight 401 scenario.
(The flight crew becoming preoccupied with a burnt-out landing gear indicator light and failed to notice the autopilot had inadvertently been disconnected. As a result, the flight gradually lost altitude and eventually crashed while the crew was distracted with the indicator problem.)
With you 100% on that one RVDT.
(The flight crew becoming preoccupied with a burnt-out landing gear indicator light and failed to notice the autopilot had inadvertently been disconnected. As a result, the flight gradually lost altitude and eventually crashed while the crew was distracted with the indicator problem.)
My experience from "tapes" and "round dials" is that "round dials" don't require you to read the numbers. The angle of the needle is enough.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 30th Aug 2013 at 15:24.
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Instrument Training
My overall impression is that most TRI's have not had the benefit of a course that helps them to help the candidate learn to instrument fly properly and to a certain extent we lack the tools to do that as well. The fact that it's necessary to resort to 'Post-It' notes stuck on bits of the PFD in order to teach students how to prioritise the data collection at different stages of flight and in different manoeuvres reinforces that notion.
When I learnt to fly as a newbie in the sixties - the LATE sixties I hasten to add - the teaching techniques were so rough and ready it was tantamount to being given an aircraft and a safety pilot whilst you taught yourself how to do it.
Things then became more scientific and we all benefitted from a more structured approach with patches of duct tape used instead of the post it notes of today.
If the TRI's are going to be in the front line of those tutoring newbies when they first encounter flat screen technology then we need to equip the TRIs with some skills beforehand - Ah! what's that you say? Not required in the regs!! Bugger! another hole in the Swiss cheese. It can join the fact that sim instructors are not required to learn how to teach in a sim, just to know what the buttons do and how to climb down the escape ladder. Looking more like a lump of stale Emmental every day.
I retire next month but will make myself available to anyone interested in making our instructor corps as good as they are able, rather than just (barely) good enough.**
**This comment is directed at the extensive population of TRIs that have been elbowed into running sim training sessions for their company but never given the tuition or practice or mentoring to get them up to a standard whereby they are fluent, confident and above all competent. Every time I climb in the box and find it in a mess after a 'dry' training session I really do wonder what had gone on in there and whether any real value was achieved from the time and money spent.
G.
When I learnt to fly as a newbie in the sixties - the LATE sixties I hasten to add - the teaching techniques were so rough and ready it was tantamount to being given an aircraft and a safety pilot whilst you taught yourself how to do it.
Things then became more scientific and we all benefitted from a more structured approach with patches of duct tape used instead of the post it notes of today.
If the TRI's are going to be in the front line of those tutoring newbies when they first encounter flat screen technology then we need to equip the TRIs with some skills beforehand - Ah! what's that you say? Not required in the regs!! Bugger! another hole in the Swiss cheese. It can join the fact that sim instructors are not required to learn how to teach in a sim, just to know what the buttons do and how to climb down the escape ladder. Looking more like a lump of stale Emmental every day.
I retire next month but will make myself available to anyone interested in making our instructor corps as good as they are able, rather than just (barely) good enough.**
**This comment is directed at the extensive population of TRIs that have been elbowed into running sim training sessions for their company but never given the tuition or practice or mentoring to get them up to a standard whereby they are fluent, confident and above all competent. Every time I climb in the box and find it in a mess after a 'dry' training session I really do wonder what had gone on in there and whether any real value was achieved from the time and money spent.
G.
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 30th Aug 2013 at 15:25.
Geoffers......an evaluation tool I used in the aircraft and sim when doing IF training, was to announce "Unusual Attitude Recovery".....and set up the exercise with the usual...."Right...Head down...eyes closed....I'll fly....you keep yer eyes closed till I tell you to take the controls...then you take control and recover from whatever attitude you are given. (...or words to that effect)
Once the Stude got his head down and eyes closed....I reached across and adjusted his Attitude Indicator to show a Ten degree Bank when actually level.
Then....do the old whoopsy doodle bit for a minute moving all the controls around and wiggling the pedals.....then in a fairly benign aircraft attitude....give control to the Stude....and watch the next few minutes of fun.
What I found.....those that knew how to actually fly the instruments....tweaked to the attitude indicator roll problem in very short order.....and those....usually the great majority would never figure it out. We flopped from one side to the other as they fought heading problems over and over and over.....all the while ignoring the Standby and Co-Pilots Attitude Indicators that were both showing something different than the one he was using.
What that showed was whether the guy was flying instruments (plural usage on purpose) or the Attitude Indicator.
In just a couple of words....."Cross Check".
Remember my complaint about Check Airman from a Company Checking their Check Airman Buddy....rather than having a third party do the checks and the risk that poses?
Once the Stude got his head down and eyes closed....I reached across and adjusted his Attitude Indicator to show a Ten degree Bank when actually level.
Then....do the old whoopsy doodle bit for a minute moving all the controls around and wiggling the pedals.....then in a fairly benign aircraft attitude....give control to the Stude....and watch the next few minutes of fun.
What I found.....those that knew how to actually fly the instruments....tweaked to the attitude indicator roll problem in very short order.....and those....usually the great majority would never figure it out. We flopped from one side to the other as they fought heading problems over and over and over.....all the while ignoring the Standby and Co-Pilots Attitude Indicators that were both showing something different than the one he was using.
What that showed was whether the guy was flying instruments (plural usage on purpose) or the Attitude Indicator.
In just a couple of words....."Cross Check".
Remember my complaint about Check Airman from a Company Checking their Check Airman Buddy....rather than having a third party do the checks and the risk that poses?
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Super Puma crash not due to technical problems, says CAA
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Another survivor describes how quickly the helicopter seemed to lose power and end up in the sea.
?I was on my last breaths when a flash of my family got me through?, says survivor | ShetlandTimes.co.uk
?I was on my last breaths when a flash of my family got me through?, says survivor | ShetlandTimes.co.uk
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If only it was that easy in aviation. Working with a few "glass machines" over the years it is far from easy even to get something minor changed and released.
e.g. EC135P2 - new config file to change ALT BARO from in/hg to hPa.
7K Euro! As the avionics installed were slightly different than standard and the file had to be written, tested and released.
My experience from "tapes" and "round dials" is that "round dials" don't require you to read the numbers. The angle of the needle is enough.
e.g. EC135P2 - new config file to change ALT BARO from in/hg to hPa.
7K Euro! As the avionics installed were slightly different than standard and the file had to be written, tested and released.
My experience from "tapes" and "round dials" is that "round dials" don't require you to read the numbers. The angle of the needle is enough.
Your comments regarding the convenience of circular readouts demonstrates the benefit of offering pilots personalised choices in the style and display of information and I would go further and say that additional options relating to the positioning of specific indicators as well as their relative size should also be optional. In fact, pilots should be able to customise screens specifically to their preferences.
For aircraft regularly flown by different pilots a personal code could be entered into the system to activate an individual's preferences and if large fleet operators wish to standardise all their displays they should be able to "lock" screen options to a specific setting or simply indicate the company's preferred screen arrangement in their SOP's.
Either way we are at a place (technologically) where these kind of options should be available. Moreover, and in my understanding, information displayed in a way which is tailored towards a pilot's personal preferences has the potential to contribute towards the enhancement of safety.
GF - normally you make sense, but that is the most horrendous suggestion ever! What about standardisation? What about the fact that, in my experience quite often, the pilot is not well placed to make such decisions and will typically follow the easiest path for when things are run of the mill, and not consider the best overall solution under a variety of circumstances? Pilots are not MMI designers.
No, lock it down I say. Even the 225's ability to display various navaids on any screen, and the ability to select sector, HSI, rose, hover displays is getting close to 1 too many degrees of freedom, and has to be locked down by rigorous SOPs.
If you want what you suggest, I suggest you but a PC flight sim!
No, lock it down I say. Even the 225's ability to display various navaids on any screen, and the ability to select sector, HSI, rose, hover displays is getting close to 1 too many degrees of freedom, and has to be locked down by rigorous SOPs.
If you want what you suggest, I suggest you but a PC flight sim!
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A CAA spokesman said: "Based on all the information currently available, we do not believe that the accident was caused by an airworthiness or technical problem."
I wonder if all the talk of finger trouble with the AFCS in the past couple of pages will bear any relation to what is discovered? If so then NS operators will need to review their pilot training regimes, again!
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HC, some contextualisation required and, significantly, I am not suggesting an information "free for all" in respect of which information should be in and which should not but primary indicators such as airspeed, vertical speed, attitude and heading may connect with different people in different ways - in fact the evidence is already there as Sikorsky found out (see John Dixon's post).
Rigorous standardisation may well be easier to administer but real safety might just be found in higher levels of customisation.
Ideally it is something to be researched.
Rigorous standardisation may well be easier to administer but real safety might just be found in higher levels of customisation.
Ideally it is something to be researched.
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With regard to display settings, there has to be standardisation, end of debate. I would not wish to fly with another pilot/co-pilot who has a different screen set up than me. It would be a nightmare on the line and during training (Sim debriefs would be interesting for sure). Anyway I doubt the authority would allow it.
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HC and BROM I strongly agree with your posts re standardisation. In my experience HC is correct that even multiple options of needle displays can lead to confusion.
However, I also feel we should embrace multiple SOPs for differing scenarios especially with the situational awareness tools available on modern displays.
Grenville. You may have a point in the SPH environment but I think most MPH crews on this forum rely on standardisation as a key component of CRM and inherent safety. Not to say we should not tailor anything for a specific set of circumstances but this would always be briefed out as "non standard" to ensure our stick buddy remains in the loop to watch our your back.
I believe, in the MPH environment, two pilots doing their own thing is far worse than one pilot on his own.
DB
However, I also feel we should embrace multiple SOPs for differing scenarios especially with the situational awareness tools available on modern displays.
Grenville. You may have a point in the SPH environment but I think most MPH crews on this forum rely on standardisation as a key component of CRM and inherent safety. Not to say we should not tailor anything for a specific set of circumstances but this would always be briefed out as "non standard" to ensure our stick buddy remains in the loop to watch our your back.
I believe, in the MPH environment, two pilots doing their own thing is far worse than one pilot on his own.
DB
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I recall reading some analysis on electronic instruments presented as either dials or as numbers many years ago.
It was said that is is much easier to spot an indicator out of its normal place on a dial type display than a number.
As stated above the point was that you did not have to read the numbers to determine if there was a problem - merely scan the dials to see something was wrong.
This effect is even more noticeable on a complex bank of say multiple engine dials where a single errorous indicator in the dial format will be spotted far quicker than a bank of numbers.
It was said that is is much easier to spot an indicator out of its normal place on a dial type display than a number.
As stated above the point was that you did not have to read the numbers to determine if there was a problem - merely scan the dials to see something was wrong.
This effect is even more noticeable on a complex bank of say multiple engine dials where a single errorous indicator in the dial format will be spotted far quicker than a bank of numbers.
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Dsc810, I hear you but we are much more advanced than you think. When a system is out of parameter in EC225 we get a warning light plus the numbers on the affect system gauge appear for the first time. We do not need to monitor numbers anymore (in general).
On the EC175 we have gone one step further. In this type, a parameter out of trend is notified to the crew long before it exceeds a limit.
Some of this philosophy is on the L2 but not all.
We are heading in the right direction.
Round gauges or tapes. May well be a personal preference but I have not met an EC225 or EC175 pilot who does not like the EC display.
Is there anyone who can prove me wrong on this one.
DB
On the EC175 we have gone one step further. In this type, a parameter out of trend is notified to the crew long before it exceeds a limit.
Some of this philosophy is on the L2 but not all.
We are heading in the right direction.
Round gauges or tapes. May well be a personal preference but I have not met an EC225 or EC175 pilot who does not like the EC display.
Is there anyone who can prove me wrong on this one.
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 30th Aug 2013 at 18:10.