AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
It is in Bristow, but not set in stone. If the copilot never plays the PM role in such circumstances, how can he prepare for command? But if he was pretty new, putting him as PF would seem the sensible thing to do.
Is it company policy where you work for the Captains to mentor Co-Pilots and give them as much hands on experience as possible....or are Line Captains seen to be the Hands on guy and the Co-Pilot there to assist the Captain by doing all the grunt work?
I always saw it to be my responsibility to teach and mentor as well as be the PIC of the Helicopter.
By doing that.....do you not work to break down the psychological barrier between the two pilots so that in times of stress the subordinate is willing to speak up and communicate and for the Captain to "Listen" to the Co-Pilot?
HC....we know you would never have that problem of banging yer balls....but if you did it would be a very small problem.
I always saw it to be my responsibility to teach and mentor as well as be the PIC of the Helicopter.
By doing that.....do you not work to break down the psychological barrier between the two pilots so that in times of stress the subordinate is willing to speak up and communicate and for the Captain to "Listen" to the Co-Pilot?
HC....we know you would never have that problem of banging yer balls....but if you did it would be a very small problem.
Last edited by SASless; 21st Sep 2013 at 13:25.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northern Lights
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it company policy where you work for the Captains to mentor Co-Pilots and give them as much hands on experience as possible....or are Line Captains seen to be the Hands on guy and the Co-Pilot there to assist the Captain by doing all the grunt work?
In my company generally one pilot flies out and the other flies back. I may offer the other pilot the other sector as well from time to time if they are relatively new on line so they can get the take-off and landing practice: regrettably, I won't improve, maybe they will.
As to mentoring, no, I don't think there is any policy about that although I fail to see how you can sit there and not learn anything from watching the other guy regardless of the experience you have.
I always saw it to be my responsibility to teach and mentor as well as be the PIC of the Helicopter.
By doing that.....do you not work to break down the psychological barrier between the two pilots so that in times of stress the subordinate is willing to speak up and communicate and for the Captain to "Listen" to the Co-Pilot?
By doing that.....do you not work to break down the psychological barrier between the two pilots so that in times of stress the subordinate is willing to speak up and communicate and for the Captain to "Listen" to the Co-Pilot?
It probably also helps to tell them before you go flying, that if they see anything they don't like or understand to spit it out sooner rather than later.
Last edited by Ray Joe Czech; 21st Sep 2013 at 14:35.
RJC,
Seems you confuse "Mentoring" with "Instruction"....and I take it from your comments you think a new copilot should silently admire your Monkey Skills and somehow soak up that ability vicariously.
Monkey skills come from hands on flying....or doing.....the other important part of the learning process is as you say....including the lesser experienced pilot in all phases of the business at hand.....in other words....being a Mentor.
Is not the old Master/Apprentice relationship what we are talking about here?
The skilled craftsman passing that skill down to a younger person?
How that gets done is the question.
I maintain Captains have an inherent responsibility to do so.......do you disagree?
Do you know Gann......I begin to think not?
Great Aviation Quotes: Piloting
Seems you confuse "Mentoring" with "Instruction"....and I take it from your comments you think a new copilot should silently admire your Monkey Skills and somehow soak up that ability vicariously.
Monkey skills come from hands on flying....or doing.....the other important part of the learning process is as you say....including the lesser experienced pilot in all phases of the business at hand.....in other words....being a Mentor.
Is not the old Master/Apprentice relationship what we are talking about here?
The skilled craftsman passing that skill down to a younger person?
How that gets done is the question.
I maintain Captains have an inherent responsibility to do so.......do you disagree?
Do you know Gann......I begin to think not?
Great Aviation Quotes: Piloting
Last edited by SASless; 21st Sep 2013 at 15:18.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northern Lights
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps you should read what I have said rather than what you think I have said.
As to your Master/Apprentice comment, that just leads me to think that you have no conception of what cockpit gradient means.
Edited to add: the OECD definition of mentor: advise, or train.
As to your Master/Apprentice comment, that just leads me to think that you have no conception of what cockpit gradient means.
Edited to add: the OECD definition of mentor: advise, or train.
Last edited by Ray Joe Czech; 21st Sep 2013 at 15:31.
There is no real difference between mentoring and instruction - both are means to pass on knowledge and skills and both require mutual respect to be effective.
It is only those that insist on the more formal methods of instruction that become ineffective and rely on status to ensure the 'gradient' rather than it being self-evident from both the quality and quantity of the knowledge being passed along.
It is only those that insist on the more formal methods of instruction that become ineffective and rely on status to ensure the 'gradient' rather than it being self-evident from both the quality and quantity of the knowledge being passed along.
Apprentice defined:
one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling
Master defined:
A journeyman has also the responsibility of supervising lesser experienced workers and training them. He must be qualified to work unsupervised himself.
one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling
Master defined:
A journeyman has also the responsibility of supervising lesser experienced workers and training them. He must be qualified to work unsupervised himself.
Last edited by SASless; 21st Sep 2013 at 15:50.
UL - that was my point, formal instruction without the mutual respect is not usually very effective and it is easy to hide behind the instructor/student gradient rather than establish a real rapport with the student.
Mentoring is certainly not effective without that same rapport/respect.
Mentoring is certainly not effective without that same rapport/respect.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How fortunate we are in aviation that our class sizes in the hands on part of tuition/mentoring/intructing are generally limited to one other person!
Last edited by mary meagher; 21st Sep 2013 at 16:09.
I found by practice that removing my chain drive wallet from my hip pocket made the gradient less biased. Is that the gradient to which you refer?
Even more interesting when your co-pilot does not understand English and you have an interpreter in the jump seat. One of the principles of training is that when he is projecting you all to certain destruction you have to let him carry on so far to see whether he is going to correct himself. Should that not happen then you have to initiate command responsibility.
There are three ways.
1. Take over control and tell him where he has gone wrong. The interpreter will not understand the technical reasons so your co-pilot will suffer a massive loss of face because you have overruled him.
2 Tell the interpreter to tell the co-pilot what actions to take to correct the situation. This will end up in an argument between the interpreter and the pilot as to what I was talking about.
3 The final and best way. Convey to the pilot by means of the interpreter suggestions in such a way that the pilot thinks that they are his idea, in which case he will implement them. Face is saved all round and everybody comes home and Gam Beis at a big company dinner.
The world can be so different elsewhere.
There are three ways.
1. Take over control and tell him where he has gone wrong. The interpreter will not understand the technical reasons so your co-pilot will suffer a massive loss of face because you have overruled him.
2 Tell the interpreter to tell the co-pilot what actions to take to correct the situation. This will end up in an argument between the interpreter and the pilot as to what I was talking about.
3 The final and best way. Convey to the pilot by means of the interpreter suggestions in such a way that the pilot thinks that they are his idea, in which case he will implement them. Face is saved all round and everybody comes home and Gam Beis at a big company dinner.
The world can be so different elsewhere.
Like having a Libyan Air Force Major who spoke no English being told by a young Libyan Lieutenant who almost spoke English relaying what you said. As Far said....it is complicated sometimes. Along with the Language issues, loss of face issues, and then Rank got thrown into the mix. Caring about the outcome of a Chinook conversion course under those circumstances was more than a bit difficult. Bottom line the money was very good and living in northern Italy at the foot of the Alps was not bad duty.
Last edited by SASless; 21st Sep 2013 at 23:53.
Like having a Libyan Air Force Major who spoke no English being told by a young Libyan Lieutenant who almost spoke English relaying what you said. As Far said....it is complicated sometimes. Along with the Language issues, loss of face issues, and then Rank got thrown into the mix. Caring about the outcome of a Chinook conversion course under those circumstances was more than a bit difficult. Bottom line the money was very good and living in northern Italy at the foot of the Alps was not bad duty.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Aberdeenshire
Age: 62
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by RJC
Gossip I heard this week was that the PM -- who was the co-pilot-- said "airspeed" more than once. Please note that this is second or third hand gossip, but, if true, will put us in a run of incidents/accidents where quite inexperienced co-pilots are sitting watching experienced pilots crash aircraft.
I've got my doubts about the veracity of this as I would expect the commander to be PM given the poor weather there was at the time. Is this standard practice across all the companies?
Gossip I heard this week was that the PM -- who was the co-pilot-- said "airspeed" more than once. Please note that this is second or third hand gossip, but, if true, will put us in a run of incidents/accidents where quite inexperienced co-pilots are sitting watching experienced pilots crash aircraft.
I've got my doubts about the veracity of this as I would expect the commander to be PM given the poor weather there was at the time. Is this standard practice across all the companies?
We should wait on the facts from CVR and AAIB - hopefully we will get another interim report.
Co-Pilots - although they may be inexperienced, they are highly trained professionals who have the skills and ability to do everything the A/C commander can do - I would expect.
The real question, which has been posed earlier in this thread, is what sort of culture exists in the cockpit in the N/S, which has been partly answered but not fully?
It's a very British trait where there is a reluctance to point out mistakes to senior personnel, or question their decisions for fear of being wrong and looking stupid. Is this a problem in the companies in Aberdeen? The Co-pilot has a duty to take control if he thinks something is wrong, or his colleague has become temporarily incapacitated, and from what I have read, having no visual references can cause problems for even the most experienced?
Also nobody has mentioned fatigue as a possible factor? I know you guys are strictly limited on flying hours, but crash occurred at end of week and late on a Friday?
As an aside I have read some interesting articles form the AF447 crash in July 2009, which mystify me, as I thought all singing all dancing Airbus planes could not get outside their safe flight envelope? The crew were certainly able to get this one in an unsafe trim.
Also here there were 3 crew, although the most experienced was in bed when the chain of events was triggered by the least experienced crew member, when the auto pilot was disengaged when the pitot tube a/s sensor failed.
Only 2 possible sources? AAIB from CVR and would be highly unprofessional so unlikely? Or CP himself, speaking to colleagues, more likely, but even if true the real question is did the Pilot hear him?
We should wait on the facts from CVR and AAIB - hopefully we will get another interim report.
We should wait on the facts from CVR and AAIB - hopefully we will get another interim report.
Also nobody has mentioned fatigue as a possible factor? I know you guys are strictly limited on flying hours, but crash occurred at end of week and late on a Friday?
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Aberdeenshire
Age: 62
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Screw Driver - thanks - I have read your post 1598 which must not have registered in my mind - I have read every post. Interesting post from you.
Industry Insider
The poster stated it was gossip and unsubstantiated?
A significant number of our pilots are frequently close to the FTL limits (the limits are of course regarded as a target by the commercial department) and there are regular complaints about being fatigued. I wonder how many pilots come to work on their 5th day thinking that the automation will help them get through the 7 hours of flying and that 3rd ILS following the 4 ARAs? Another hole in the cheese is lining up as mistakes in setting up the AP are creeping in, even for those experienced on type! Would you have turned up for work if you knew you had to fly it all manually?
I agree with those who advocate more training, as opposed to testing, combined with manual flying. The latter has served me well on more than one occasion.
I agree with those who advocate more training, as opposed to testing, combined with manual flying. The latter has served me well on more than one occasion.
The existence of the call(s) is fact.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 57
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
There is no real difference between mentoring and instruction - both are means to pass on knowledge and skills and both require mutual respect to be effective.
It is only those that insist on the more formal methods of instruction that become ineffective and rely on status to ensure the 'gradient' rather than it being self-evident from both the quality and quantity of the knowledge being passed along.
It is only those that insist on the more formal methods of instruction that become ineffective and rely on status to ensure the 'gradient' rather than it being self-evident from both the quality and quantity of the knowledge being passed along.
The best post I have read here in a long time!
Instructing is a form of art, or gift, that should not be squeezed into standardised procedures. Different students learn best in different ways and it up to the instructor to find this best way. The old military style might work in operational training, but for basic tuition there are better ways.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northern Lights
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To answer an earlier point, no, I am not sure it is a line captain's job to mentor/train/instruct new pilots. Our line trainers have to do a CRM facilitators course, ground instructional training course and a fair amount of flying instructional training to do that: you think it's fine for me to do this without any of that?
The practical outcome of this approach is what tends to happen a little anyway, although less and less as all the dinosaurs die out. Line captains showing pilots fresh out of their line check "better" or "other" ways to do things. Having been on the receiving end of this type of thing I can report it is just a pain in the ar$e. You are just trying to get on with what you have been instructed to do when you are shown another way to do it along with an unwanted and sometimes plain wrong lecture. These guys are not idiots; they can see how you think and what you do and say; they will pick it up by osmosis. And if they don't, it's because the way I do isn't that great, or they don't get it, in which case they will have it beaten into them on recurrent line training.
My point about the gradient thing is that the more you adopt a mentor/instructor role and they a student/apprentice one, the steeper the cockpit gradient becomes between them and you, and, I believe, the more inhibited they will be in making a verbal or physical intervention if required. And if the gossip I reported is true then these matters are key because it looks like the Cougar, ETAP and this one all had this as a contributory factor.
The practical outcome of this approach is what tends to happen a little anyway, although less and less as all the dinosaurs die out. Line captains showing pilots fresh out of their line check "better" or "other" ways to do things. Having been on the receiving end of this type of thing I can report it is just a pain in the ar$e. You are just trying to get on with what you have been instructed to do when you are shown another way to do it along with an unwanted and sometimes plain wrong lecture. These guys are not idiots; they can see how you think and what you do and say; they will pick it up by osmosis. And if they don't, it's because the way I do isn't that great, or they don't get it, in which case they will have it beaten into them on recurrent line training.
My point about the gradient thing is that the more you adopt a mentor/instructor role and they a student/apprentice one, the steeper the cockpit gradient becomes between them and you, and, I believe, the more inhibited they will be in making a verbal or physical intervention if required. And if the gossip I reported is true then these matters are key because it looks like the Cougar, ETAP and this one all had this as a contributory factor.