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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

Old 21st Sep 2013, 16:24
  #1841 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps you should read what I have said rather than what you think I have said.
As to your Master/Apprentice comment, that just leads me to think that you have no conception of what cockpit gradient means.

Edited to add: the OECD definition of mentor: advise, or train.

Last edited by Ray Joe Czech; 21st Sep 2013 at 16:31.
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Old 21st Sep 2013, 16:43
  #1842 (permalink)  
 
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There is no real difference between mentoring and instruction - both are means to pass on knowledge and skills and both require mutual respect to be effective.

It is only those that insist on the more formal methods of instruction that become ineffective and rely on status to ensure the 'gradient' rather than it being self-evident from both the quality and quantity of the knowledge being passed along.
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Old 21st Sep 2013, 16:46
  #1843 (permalink)  
 
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Apprentice defined:

one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling

Master defined:


A journeyman has also the responsibility of supervising lesser experienced workers and training them. He must be qualified to work unsupervised himself.

Last edited by SASless; 21st Sep 2013 at 16:50.
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Old 21st Sep 2013, 17:02
  #1844 (permalink)  
 
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UL - that was my point, formal instruction without the mutual respect is not usually very effective and it is easy to hide behind the instructor/student gradient rather than establish a real rapport with the student.

Mentoring is certainly not effective without that same rapport/respect.
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Old 21st Sep 2013, 17:08
  #1845 (permalink)  
 
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How fortunate we are in aviation that our class sizes in the hands on part of tuition/mentoring/intructing are generally limited to one other person!

Last edited by mary meagher; 21st Sep 2013 at 17:09.
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Old 21st Sep 2013, 17:11
  #1846 (permalink)  
 
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I found by practice that removing my chain drive wallet from my hip pocket made the gradient less biased. Is that the gradient to which you refer?
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Old 21st Sep 2013, 21:37
  #1847 (permalink)  
 
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Even more interesting when your co-pilot does not understand English and you have an interpreter in the jump seat. One of the principles of training is that when he is projecting you all to certain destruction you have to let him carry on so far to see whether he is going to correct himself. Should that not happen then you have to initiate command responsibility.

There are three ways.

1. Take over control and tell him where he has gone wrong. The interpreter will not understand the technical reasons so your co-pilot will suffer a massive loss of face because you have overruled him.

2 Tell the interpreter to tell the co-pilot what actions to take to correct the situation. This will end up in an argument between the interpreter and the pilot as to what I was talking about.

3 The final and best way. Convey to the pilot by means of the interpreter suggestions in such a way that the pilot thinks that they are his idea, in which case he will implement them. Face is saved all round and everybody comes home and Gam Beis at a big company dinner.

The world can be so different elsewhere.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 00:52
  #1848 (permalink)  
 
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Like having a Libyan Air Force Major who spoke no English being told by a young Libyan Lieutenant who almost spoke English relaying what you said. As Far said....it is complicated sometimes. Along with the Language issues, loss of face issues, and then Rank got thrown into the mix. Caring about the outcome of a Chinook conversion course under those circumstances was more than a bit difficult. Bottom line the money was very good and living in northern Italy at the foot of the Alps was not bad duty.

Last edited by SASless; 22nd Sep 2013 at 00:53.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 01:21
  #1849 (permalink)  
 
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Like having a Libyan Air Force Major who spoke no English being told by a young Libyan Lieutenant who almost spoke English relaying what you said. As Far said....it is complicated sometimes. Along with the Language issues, loss of face issues, and then Rank got thrown into the mix. Caring about the outcome of a Chinook conversion course under those circumstances was more than a bit difficult. Bottom line the money was very good and living in northern Italy at the foot of the Alps was not bad duty.
Relevance check SAS. This occurrence was in Sumburgh with two qualified and current English speaking pilots. Retirement is in danger of mixing your cogent posts with rambling ones.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 08:23
  #1850 (permalink)  
 
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Originally posted by RJC
Gossip I heard this week was that the PM -- who was the co-pilot-- said "airspeed" more than once. Please note that this is second or third hand gossip, but, if true, will put us in a run of incidents/accidents where quite inexperienced co-pilots are sitting watching experienced pilots crash aircraft.
I've got my doubts about the veracity of this as I would expect the commander to be PM given the poor weather there was at the time. Is this standard practice across all the companies?
Only 2 possible sources? AAIB from CVR and would be highly unprofessional so unlikely? Or CP himself, speaking to colleagues, more likely, but even if true the real question is did the Pilot hear him?
We should wait on the facts from CVR and AAIB - hopefully we will get another interim report.

Co-Pilots - although they may be inexperienced, they are highly trained professionals who have the skills and ability to do everything the A/C commander can do - I would expect.
The real question, which has been posed earlier in this thread, is what sort of culture exists in the cockpit in the N/S, which has been partly answered but not fully?

It's a very British trait where there is a reluctance to point out mistakes to senior personnel, or question their decisions for fear of being wrong and looking stupid. Is this a problem in the companies in Aberdeen? The Co-pilot has a duty to take control if he thinks something is wrong, or his colleague has become temporarily incapacitated, and from what I have read, having no visual references can cause problems for even the most experienced?

Also nobody has mentioned fatigue as a possible factor? I know you guys are strictly limited on flying hours, but crash occurred at end of week and late on a Friday?

As an aside I have read some interesting articles form the AF447 crash in July 2009, which mystify me, as I thought all singing all dancing Airbus planes could not get outside their safe flight envelope? The crew were certainly able to get this one in an unsafe trim.
Also here there were 3 crew, although the most experienced was in bed when the chain of events was triggered by the least experienced crew member, when the auto pilot was disengaged when the pitot tube a/s sensor failed.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 10:05
  #1851 (permalink)  
 
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Only 2 possible sources? AAIB from CVR and would be highly unprofessional so unlikely? Or CP himself, speaking to colleagues, more likely, but even if true the real question is did the Pilot hear him?
We should wait on the facts from CVR and AAIB - hopefully we will get another interim report.
The existence of the call(s) is fact.

Also nobody has mentioned fatigue as a possible factor? I know you guys are strictly limited on flying hours, but crash occurred at end of week and late on a Friday?
It was this crew's only flight of the day so fatigue would have to be cumulative and affect both crew. The same aircraft had flown an almost identical flight earlier in the day.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 10:23
  #1852 (permalink)  
 
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"Also nobody has mentioned fatigue as a possible factor?"

It was thrown into the mix in post no. 1598 in response to a comment by Wirbelsturm.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 11:00
  #1853 (permalink)  
 
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Screw Driver - thanks - I have read your post 1598 which must not have registered in my mind - I have read every post. Interesting post from you.

A significant number of our pilots are frequently close to the FTL limits (the limits are of course regarded as a target by the commercial department) and there are regular complaints about being fatigued. I wonder how many pilots come to work on their 5th day thinking that the automation will help them get through the 7 hours of flying and that 3rd ILS following the 4 ARAs? Another hole in the cheese is lining up as mistakes in setting up the AP are creeping in, even for those experienced on type! Would you have turned up for work if you knew you had to fly it all manually?

I agree with those who advocate more training, as opposed to testing, combined with manual flying. The latter has served me well on more than one occasion.
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The existence of the call(s) is fact.
The poster stated it was gossip and unsubstantiated?
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 11:14
  #1854 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
There is no real difference between mentoring and instruction - both are means to pass on knowledge and skills and both require mutual respect to be effective.

It is only those that insist on the more formal methods of instruction that become ineffective and rely on status to ensure the 'gradient' rather than it being self-evident from both the quality and quantity of the knowledge being passed along.

The best post I have read here in a long time!
Instructing is a form of art, or gift, that should not be squeezed into standardised procedures. Different students learn best in different ways and it up to the instructor to find this best way. The old military style might work in operational training, but for basic tuition there are better ways.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 14:43
  #1855 (permalink)  
 
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To answer an earlier point, no, I am not sure it is a line captain's job to mentor/train/instruct new pilots. Our line trainers have to do a CRM facilitators course, ground instructional training course and a fair amount of flying instructional training to do that: you think it's fine for me to do this without any of that?
The practical outcome of this approach is what tends to happen a little anyway, although less and less as all the dinosaurs die out. Line captains showing pilots fresh out of their line check "better" or "other" ways to do things. Having been on the receiving end of this type of thing I can report it is just a pain in the ar$e. You are just trying to get on with what you have been instructed to do when you are shown another way to do it along with an unwanted and sometimes plain wrong lecture. These guys are not idiots; they can see how you think and what you do and say; they will pick it up by osmosis. And if they don't, it's because the way I do isn't that great, or they don't get it, in which case they will have it beaten into them on recurrent line training.

My point about the gradient thing is that the more you adopt a mentor/instructor role and they a student/apprentice one, the steeper the cockpit gradient becomes between them and you, and, I believe, the more inhibited they will be in making a verbal or physical intervention if required. And if the gossip I reported is true then these matters are key because it looks like the Cougar, ETAP and this one all had this as a contributory factor.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 19:44
  #1856 (permalink)  
 
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Both Cougar ones, the crash and the near crash.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 20:37
  #1857 (permalink)  
 
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Years ago I was sent off to a platform under construction to change over the evening shift. The wind was northerly and the accommodation barge was on the eastern side which made it a LHS landing. The helideck on the main structure was on the north side of the derricks was a RHS landing apart from another barge moored alongside with its cranes up against the western side of the helideck.

I recced both deck as I arrived and as the western crane was too close to the platforms helideck I told my co-pilot that he was going to be busy doing all the landings. He landed on the accommodation barge and I did the take off. I handed over control for the landing on the platform and as expected the deck went out of my sight on the final stages of the approach.

There then followed a long period of hovering and general confusion. I queried this and he stated that he could not manage the landing. I then took over control and pulled in power to clear the installation.

Conversation established that his entire offshore night experience had been four landings on a semisub parked in Aberdeen harbour. On the basis of this he had been line checked and cleared for all night operations. I had not flown with him before and there was no intimation to me as to his lack of experience. In a different circumstance if I had fouled it up he would have no way of knowing as to when we would have passed the point of no return.

Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you're not.
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Old 22nd Sep 2013, 23:31
  #1858 (permalink)  
 
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Harry said it right too....not one single method of teaching works as we all have different motivators. The key to being a good instructor is being able to figure out how to motivate the one being taught. Any one that has Principles of Instruction should be aware of that.

It's a very British trait where there is a reluctance to point out mistakes to senior personnel, or question their decisions for fear of being wrong and looking stupid.
It has been my experience with the British (for the Ex-British Army anyway)....it was the other way around.....the Seniors did not like being shown to be stupid and wrong. The RN and RAF guys all seemed quite reasonable and decent Chaps. The Dark Blue crowd seemed to be far more fun in the Mess after duty was done.
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Old 23rd Sep 2013, 00:06
  #1859 (permalink)  

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Now now Sas, please don't tar all ex British Army with the same brush......

NEO
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Old 23rd Sep 2013, 00:14
  #1860 (permalink)  
 
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The introduction of CRM courses made a big difference in helping inexperienced co-pilots challenge any odd decisions made by the captain. It gave them confidence because they knew the system would back them up and also demonstrated to the "crusty" older captains that they could and would be challenged if they "did their own thing".

SASless

The Dark Blue crowd seemed to be far more fun in the Mess after duty was done
Are yes the Rum, baccy and....... Service

HF
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