AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
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The captain of the BA777 that landed a tad short at LHR was told by BA to go into seclusion and on no account talk to the media.
No doubt the crew of the Super Puma have also received the same caution.
No doubt the crew of the Super Puma have also received the same caution.
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The Norway CHC L2s are flying today. CHC is the Operator of the accident aircraft.
The AAIB report expressly omits any mention of technical problems despite 4 days access to both pilots.
BALPA press release reaffirms its members confidence in the Super Puma family and has access to the crews.
Lets hope the HSSG recognise the significance off these statements and CHC actions and we all get flying again soon.
DB
The AAIB report expressly omits any mention of technical problems despite 4 days access to both pilots.
BALPA press release reaffirms its members confidence in the Super Puma family and has access to the crews.
Lets hope the HSSG recognise the significance off these statements and CHC actions and we all get flying again soon.
DB
Its very good news that the cockpit voice and flight data recorder has been recovered, and the likelihood is the true cause(s) of the ditching can now be determined from hard facts. Not withstanding that, it would be sad if the opportunity was lost to use this accident and the attention currently focused upon it to improve the already high standards throughout the offshore helicopter industry.
As Diginagain said:
The difference between CHIRP and my proposal, is that CHIRP is started by an individual being sufficiently concerned that they initiate the process of a report. What I proposed was a confidential survey or interviews of all those working (and could include retired from) the industry to pick up incidents which had previously gone unreported. There must be plenty of close-call incidents which, although alarming at the time, did not get reported due to distractions of pressing day to day tasks. They then become distant memories until someone gets badly bitten by much the same thing.
My other proposal, of, as Grenville Fortescue described it,
to observe and compare, over a period of weeks or months, the differences between the operators' styles of operations, planning, maintenance etc. with the sole objective to bring industry standards up to the level of the best, would be a valid way to reassure the users of North Sea helicopters that the four lost did not die in vain.
As a footnote, if you were a 'bear' wouldn't you at least like your pilot to be aware of the cause of the recent accident, whether it was mechanical or not, before you climbed into EC332L2?
As Diginagain said:
I believe it was Mechta who suggested the use of a confidential reporting system for raising concerns. Of course, air- and ground crew as well as maintainers can do-so using CHIRP. The oil industry have been offered a similar confidential occurrence reporting system but this offer has been rebuffed. It seems that while OGUK/Step Change In Safety would like greater workforce engagement, there are limits as to how much engagement is warranted, it appears.
My other proposal, of, as Grenville Fortescue described it,
A North Sea Helicopter Operations Task Force comprised of retired pilots and engineers, supported in their mission by offshore workers
As a footnote, if you were a 'bear' wouldn't you at least like your pilot to be aware of the cause of the recent accident, whether it was mechanical or not, before you climbed into EC332L2?
Last edited by Mechta; 29th Aug 2013 at 15:50. Reason: footnote added
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Not speculation - CHC website
From the CHC website:
Update: CHC Statement on Sumburgh Aircraft Accident
So the SP family is OK to resume flight operations as soon as the HSSG say so
Update: CHC Statement on Sumburgh Aircraft Accident
From what we know so far about the Sumburgh incident, as well as tens of thousands of hours of experience with this aircraft, there is no reason to believe that a fundamental problem with AS332L2 aircraft led to this accident. So we returned AS332L2 aircraft to service beginning Thursday.
Inside the U.K., we are continuing to honor a request by the Helicopter Safety Steering Group and are not presently flying passengers with AS332L, As332L1, AS332L2 or EC225 aircraft (except for life-saving SAR and medevac missions).
Inside the U.K., we are continuing to honor a request by the Helicopter Safety Steering Group and are not presently flying passengers with AS332L, As332L1, AS332L2 or EC225 aircraft (except for life-saving SAR and medevac missions).
Last edited by b.borg; 29th Aug 2013 at 16:23.
So very fine Tap Dancing in the CHC Press Release.
No statement as to the suspected cause....but a statement that the Type (in their view) has no "fundamental flaw".
You speculators out there.....if there was a mechanical problem would they have mentioned something vaguely or not? If it was CFIT...would they have obliquely mentioned that to enhance the public image of the SP family?
No statement as to the suspected cause....but a statement that the Type (in their view) has no "fundamental flaw".
You speculators out there.....if there was a mechanical problem would they have mentioned something vaguely or not? If it was CFIT...would they have obliquely mentioned that to enhance the public image of the SP family?
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Vortex ring? Don't think so.
If their airspeed was low enough for vortex ring, say 20kts and they travelled a mile after the start of the event (with the wind from about the half past one I think) then to travel that mile it's going to take them about 4 minutes. At the same time they dropped about 400' in that hypothetical 4 minutes ie 100'/minute. Hardly vortex ring territory.
If their airspeed was low enough for vortex ring, say 20kts and they travelled a mile after the start of the event (with the wind from about the half past one I think) then to travel that mile it's going to take them about 4 minutes. At the same time they dropped about 400' in that hypothetical 4 minutes ie 100'/minute. Hardly vortex ring territory.
I bet BHL wishes they had a Hangar full of old S-61's that could be given a good wash, a quick inspection and run-up....a few base checks and put the old girls back into the air for a while.
Remember those days....when surplus helicopters tended to get pushed back out of the way but kept somewhat ready to go if a quick need showed itself?
But....that was when Helicopter folks and not business tycoons ran things.
Remember those days....when surplus helicopters tended to get pushed back out of the way but kept somewhat ready to go if a quick need showed itself?
But....that was when Helicopter folks and not business tycoons ran things.
Last edited by SASless; 29th Aug 2013 at 16:48.
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I tend to agree with you but ..
.. and
.. and
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Satsuma, totally agree.
What is this all about? AAIB investigated the accident did they not?
What could this kind of inquiry accomplish that the AAIB Investigation did not?
Delayed Super Puma inquiry ?could have saved four lives? | The Times
What could this kind of inquiry accomplish that the AAIB Investigation did not?
Delayed Super Puma inquiry ?could have saved four lives? | The Times
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Exactly, which non-happening accident enquiry? Which delay?
Any reviews etc. which are going to be done (as per suggestions made on this thread) should include some sort of collaboration between the oilcos, operators, RMT and the regulator about blinkin' releases to the media.
This issue has been addressed numerous times on PPRuNe and I think the tendency is to see fouled-up news reports as something of an irritation but the reality is that poor media management can end up damaging the industry for all the wrong reasons.
Any reviews etc. which are going to be done (as per suggestions made on this thread) should include some sort of collaboration between the oilcos, operators, RMT and the regulator about blinkin' releases to the media.
This issue has been addressed numerous times on PPRuNe and I think the tendency is to see fouled-up news reports as something of an irritation but the reality is that poor media management can end up damaging the industry for all the wrong reasons.
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Lawsuit Implications
Without specific reference to this current accident case, as a general question (which I am sure you will tell me is a naive one but here goes anyway!), are the crew of an aircraft involved in an accident not covered by their employers indemnity insurance from any potential lawsuit? I thought that was the whole purpose of liability insurance for AOC operators.
Surely any lawsuit would be against the company and not the individuals??
I realise there are nominated post holders as part of an AOC requirement but again, there would be liability insurance would there not? A member of the crew is not a nominated post holder.
I would be interested to hear of your experience of this.
My thoughts and prayers are for those left behind who have lost loved ones, friends, and work colleagues in this regrettable accident
Surely any lawsuit would be against the company and not the individuals??
I realise there are nominated post holders as part of an AOC requirement but again, there would be liability insurance would there not? A member of the crew is not a nominated post holder.
I would be interested to hear of your experience of this.
My thoughts and prayers are for those left behind who have lost loved ones, friends, and work colleagues in this regrettable accident
AS - its about the fatal accident inquiry on the 2009 L2 accident - a Scottish thing, see here:
Fatal Accident Inquiries - Judgments & Sentences - Judiciary of Scotland
Not really related to an aaib report, but supplemental to it.
Lenticular, I suspect that a multi-million pound company with lots of insurance is a better bet for sueing (in terms of likely wealth pot from which to get money) that an individual, hence its normally the company they go after, not the pilot.
Fatal Accident Inquiries - Judgments & Sentences - Judiciary of Scotland
Not really related to an aaib report, but supplemental to it.
Lenticular, I suspect that a multi-million pound company with lots of insurance is a better bet for sueing (in terms of likely wealth pot from which to get money) that an individual, hence its normally the company they go after, not the pilot.
A meeting of industry representatives has recommended that Super Puma helicopters should be cleared to fly.
All offshore flights by the Super Puma had been suspended following the crash off Shetland last week which killed four oil workers.
The Helicopter Safety Steering Group (HSSG) said a campaign would be started to engage with the offshore workforce.
Earlier the missing flight data recorder the crashed helicopter was recovered.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said the combined voice and flight data recorder would be taken to its Farnborough headquarters for analysis.
The AAIB said the Super Puma had appeared to show a "reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent".
The AAIB said it appeared the helicopter had been intact and upright when it entered the water.
However, it was too early to identify a cause of the crash.
The AAIB update reported: "Preliminary information indicates that the approach proceeded normally until approximately three miles from the runway when there was a reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent.
"The helicopter struck the sea approximately two miles west of the runway threshold.
"The evidence currently available suggests that the helicopter was intact and upright when it entered the water.
"It then rapidly inverted and drifted northwards. The helicopter was largely broken up by repeated contact with the rocky shoreline.
"The investigation is ongoing and at this early stage it is not possible to identify the causal factors leading to the accident."
Heavy swell Much of the wreckage of the Super Puma has been brought ashore.
Key parts arrived at Lerwick at 04:30 on the support vessel Bibby Polaris.
Divers had known the rough location of the flight data recorder, but heavy swell hampered efforts to retrieve it.
Marine engineering company Ocean Kinetics, which is carrying out the recovery operation, had already recovered the helicopter's gearbox and rotor head.
Four people died when the Super Puma AS332 L2 went down close to shore on a flight to Shetland's Sumburgh Airport from the Borgsten Dolphin rig.
They were Duncan Munro, 46, from Bishop Auckland, Sarah Darnley, 45, from Elgin, Gary McCrossan, 59, from Inverness, and George Allison, 57, from Winchester.
The crash was the fifth incident involving Super Pumas in the North Sea since 2009.
Inquiry Aberdeen North MP Frank Doran has called for a public inquiry.
The Super Puma is said to make up about half of the UK offshore industry's 75-strong helicopter fleet.
Different aircraft models and alternative methods of transport, such as boats, are being used or looked at to transport people on and off North Sea platforms.
Aberdeen City Council has established a facility for people affected by the crash.
It said experienced staff at the Balgownie Lodge Support Centre will offer assistance to bereaved family members, survivors, friends and work colleagues.
Aberdeen Lord Provost George Adam said: "The tragedy which occurred last Friday was deeply shocking and has affected very many people, not just those directly associated with the energy industry but the people of Aberdeen, the wider north east and indeed across the UK.
"Our thoughts are with the families of those who have lost loved ones, with the survivors and their families, and with their friends and work colleagues too, who will all be trying to come to terms with what has happened."
The centre will remain open for three weeks.
All offshore flights by the Super Puma had been suspended following the crash off Shetland last week which killed four oil workers.
The Helicopter Safety Steering Group (HSSG) said a campaign would be started to engage with the offshore workforce.
Earlier the missing flight data recorder the crashed helicopter was recovered.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said the combined voice and flight data recorder would be taken to its Farnborough headquarters for analysis.
The AAIB said the Super Puma had appeared to show a "reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent".
The AAIB said it appeared the helicopter had been intact and upright when it entered the water.
However, it was too early to identify a cause of the crash.
The AAIB update reported: "Preliminary information indicates that the approach proceeded normally until approximately three miles from the runway when there was a reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent.
"The helicopter struck the sea approximately two miles west of the runway threshold.
"The evidence currently available suggests that the helicopter was intact and upright when it entered the water.
"It then rapidly inverted and drifted northwards. The helicopter was largely broken up by repeated contact with the rocky shoreline.
"The investigation is ongoing and at this early stage it is not possible to identify the causal factors leading to the accident."
Heavy swell Much of the wreckage of the Super Puma has been brought ashore.
Key parts arrived at Lerwick at 04:30 on the support vessel Bibby Polaris.
Divers had known the rough location of the flight data recorder, but heavy swell hampered efforts to retrieve it.
Marine engineering company Ocean Kinetics, which is carrying out the recovery operation, had already recovered the helicopter's gearbox and rotor head.
Four people died when the Super Puma AS332 L2 went down close to shore on a flight to Shetland's Sumburgh Airport from the Borgsten Dolphin rig.
They were Duncan Munro, 46, from Bishop Auckland, Sarah Darnley, 45, from Elgin, Gary McCrossan, 59, from Inverness, and George Allison, 57, from Winchester.
The crash was the fifth incident involving Super Pumas in the North Sea since 2009.
Inquiry Aberdeen North MP Frank Doran has called for a public inquiry.
The Super Puma is said to make up about half of the UK offshore industry's 75-strong helicopter fleet.
Different aircraft models and alternative methods of transport, such as boats, are being used or looked at to transport people on and off North Sea platforms.
Aberdeen City Council has established a facility for people affected by the crash.
It said experienced staff at the Balgownie Lodge Support Centre will offer assistance to bereaved family members, survivors, friends and work colleagues.
Aberdeen Lord Provost George Adam said: "The tragedy which occurred last Friday was deeply shocking and has affected very many people, not just those directly associated with the energy industry but the people of Aberdeen, the wider north east and indeed across the UK.
"Our thoughts are with the families of those who have lost loved ones, with the survivors and their families, and with their friends and work colleagues too, who will all be trying to come to terms with what has happened."
The centre will remain open for three weeks.
Fairly obvious I would have thought!