AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Pitts yet again you appear doing your Troll thing.

YOU are the only poster here suggesting crew error by inadvertently suggesting the crew are being "thrown under a bus". That emotive childish term is an offence to most of the professionals (both aviators and passengers) reading this thread.

Please go and play with the fixed wing threads.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Rumour has it CHC Norway are flying L2s in Norway today.

If this is fact?? What does it mean?

DB

[bigglesbutler]

Originally Posted by Pttsextrta

...and isn't this the point? Given (as has been said) the pilots are known to many here and perhaps things have been said privately to them and the AAIB/Operators etc. What would be so terribly wrong by just saying the drivers think they dropped it but we will wait to do some further investigation to confirm there were no other circumstances?

My first though......... litigation, no lawyer or union rep would advise them to say anything prior to concrete evidence. In my days of union representation I would have advised the crew to say nought to anyone but the company safety dept (and only then a select few) and the AAIB.

There, a reasoned response to your question Pitts.

Si

[role]

Both the EC225 and L2 are flying i Norway.

Frykter norsk helikopteroppstart vil presse britene - Aftenbladet.no

[Mechta]

It is rather surprising that the AAIB describe the Super Puma's arrival in the water as a 'crash' given that they also say that they believe it was upright and intact at the time. The fact that it subsequently rolled over and was broken apart on rocks does not diminish the fact that it was an apparently complete helicopter the right way up in the water for a short while.

[Pittsextra]

Flying 3 axis coupled at Vy, ALTA capture at MDA and a failure to raise the collective would produce this exact effect and its progression is exponential as the IAS slides backwards up the Power Velocity curve.

Agaricus, the AAIB have full access to the crew. if something broke and caused the reduction of airspeed the AAIB bulletin would have been worded very differently!!

As it stands it implies there was no technical error.

We know the crew personally and you do not. Knowing them as friends and colleagues does not absolve our desire or responsibility to seek the truth

All the while explaining how this couldn't happen in a 225. My friend either you know and have it all worked out and that's cool, but unsure the need for this run around. OR you don't and you have thrown them under a bus. Not sure how else you term it in Scotland.

[SASless]

if the Pilots are smart and BALPA members....they will already have Lawyers and have made any statement only after being advised by those Lawyers.

They can count upon being sued by the families of the four passengers that were killed and also by the survivors too.....thus they need to be very judicious about what they say to the AAIB and everyone else.

I can assure you when it comes to going to Court....the Lawyers representing CHC are not representing the Pilots.

[Colibri49]

Biggles and others:

Please put into practice what Biggles himself advocated not so long ago

"Don't feed the Pitts"

[Grenville Fortescue]

Originally Posted by SASless

if the Pilots are smart and BALPA members....they will already have Lawyers and have made any statement only after being advised by those Lawyers.

They can count upon being sued by the families of the four passengers that were killed and also by the survivors too.....thus they need to be very judicious about what they say to the AAIB and everyone else.

I can assure you when it comes to going to Court....the Lawyers representing CHC are not representing the Pilots.

How true and how our little world has changed over the years.

Let's just hope this does not impede upon the quest to discover what actually happened.

[Pittsextra]

Unfortunately Colbri what other conclusion can you draw from my last post?

[gulliBell]

Originally Posted by SASless

...I am surprised to learn the Aberdeen Simulator(s) are not working nearly 24 hours each and every day. I would think every pilot, but especially newer pilots would be encouraged to make use of the Sim(s) anytime they were not scheduled for Required Training..

I've been flying IFR helicopters for over 20 years including offshore for almost 10 years and have never once sat in a sim let alone done any training in one.....I'd like to have a go in a sim at least once in my career but alas it looks unlikely. So far the employers or oil companies/clients never wanted to pay for it, perhaps they never considered it worth the expense or time.

[PRO_FANE]

Long time reader first time poster... don't bite my head off

Along with a lot of others lets wait to we see all the data before drawing conclusions.

My worry is that if human error is a factor the operators, eurocopter, oil companies and other interested parties will throw the kitchen sink at the pilots. So as to deflect from previous incidents and get the fleet flying.

I fly the 332 and have struggled with what I see as unfair criticism of the Puma family.

I do though worry that we may miss valuable safety lessons if the human factor is blamed in its entirety.

Surely with more investment in the Shetland oil fields we NEED airports with better infastructure (why no ILS for 09?, Scatsa ILS?).

What about flight time and fatigue given the latest boom in the North Sea? I certainly know my own capabilities after 5 days of early starts and 6 hours in the chair being asked to fly the 16 ILS into EGPD at minima.

Just some thoughts.....

[26500lbs]

if the Pilots are smart and BALPA members....they will already have Lawyers and have made any statement only after being advised by those Lawyers.

They can count upon being sued by the families of the four passengers that were killed and also by the survivors too.....thus they need to be very judicious about what they say to the AAIB and everyone else.

I can assure you when it comes to going to Court....the Lawyers representing CHC are not representing the Pilots.

Unfortunately this is bang on the money. If any here are ever in the unfortunate position of being involved in a accident/incident, it would be most prudent to ensure that the very first person you speak to after getting your voice back is the union representative and then an appointed lawyer after that. Only after those two have been consulted should one engage in the rest of the chat. As has been mentioned already, memory is an unreliable tool and very malleable when folks are looking for someone to blame. If I were in their shoes right now, with all the uncertainty, confusion and stress of the aftermath, I would not be saying a huge amount until the CVR/FDR are examined. A few vague memories from the heat of the very stressful moment without the full picture can really only be inaccurate at best and will do little to help build an accurate picture of events. The AAIB will expect as much and probably not expect too much from the crew at this point anyway, hence the wording of the release. It neither conforms nor denies any rumors or theories and so far in no way implicates CFIT or technical failure. Do not try to read between the lines on this one. Yes the wording is carefully chosen, but does not implicate. They just don’t know yet, and until the recovery of the FDR, probably wont be able to release any more info either. All in time.

[HeliComparator]

Not vortex ring

Personally I think its unlikely to be vortex ring.
To get VRS you have to be going very slowly in both axes, at a stable air speed less than 10 kts, and then it takes a little while to develop. SPs are pretty resistant to VRS. The hypothetical scenario proposed doesn't require VRS to cause the heli to hit the sea.

Yes, I am aware of at least one other event where this happened, not on this continent. They got away with it by the skin of their teeth.

[Brom]

Agree with HC. My recollection of VRS from my Mil training days is that the ROD is very high/scary. I doubt if the L2 would have stayed in one piece or that any of the pax would have got away with no injuries had that been the case.

[SASless]

The AAIB did not mention what the Airspeed was....what the ROD was...what the Aircraft Heading or Track was....Folks....Quit Speculating....it is a waste of time to do so.

Until there are some definitive facts and data to be chewed on and digested....you are only arm waving and making silly noises at this point.

[ACW599]

CVFDR found:

Air Accidents Investigation: AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter G-WNSB ? News Release

[SASless]

Now....in time we shall get some very useful information and data.....then we can all speculate with great abandon as some are already doing.

[HeliComparator]

SAS, I don't see anything wrong with speculation as long as its made clear its just that. It passes the time pending real information, and allows the airing of things that COULD go wrong, even if they didn't this time. Anyway, looks like there might be some solid info soon.

[CharlieOneSix]

Having been retired from the NS for nearly 15 years I have refrained from commenting here as I'm too long out of touch, however the information contained in the third paragraph of the initial AAIB press release regarding airspeed reduction and increased rate of descent could well be the result of analysis of the Sumburgh radar tapes and nothing to do with statements from the crew or passengers.