UK Air Ambulances having it off???
TC, not only are you a source of endless wit, but you can pick apart a whole strategy based on something you did many years ago and something else you thought you read on an internet forum! Damn hot, you're wasted on the helicopter industry.
Don't worry, I won't.
Pitts, the AAA is an umbrella body but isn't an organisation providing leadership to the sector. Many charities are members, some are not (including TAAS) - if they tried to adopt a leadership role, more charities would leave, simple as that. 'My' charity is a member and we regularly review the benefit of continuing.
But don't let me draw you in.
Pitts, the AAA is an umbrella body but isn't an organisation providing leadership to the sector. Many charities are members, some are not (including TAAS) - if they tried to adopt a leadership role, more charities would leave, simple as that. 'My' charity is a member and we regularly review the benefit of continuing.
I cannot speak for what individual charities regard as important, but it appears that some have a different view of what is right - for example, the CEO of TAAS (and presumably, his trustees) seems to believe that there needs to be a new model of service based on regional deployment - I happen to disagree with him as a) all evidence points to local fundraising for a local service is what works and b) because I'm not convinced that 'what is right for patients' is driving his agenda 
.
I certainly don't want to paint a picture of love and harmony in the AA sector, there are lots and lots of agendas at play. All I can say is that the charity I am involved with is well run and the focus is on providing excellent services to the patient, in line with our charitable objects.
I'm not avoiding your point on value, but I'm not sure what you are getting at.
. I certainly don't want to paint a picture of love and harmony in the AA sector, there are lots and lots of agendas at play. All I can say is that the charity I am involved with is well run and the focus is on providing excellent services to the patient, in line with our charitable objects.
I'm not avoiding your point on value, but I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Jock given the total market is in reality a few charities and a handful of operators how hard can it be??
I'm not sure what you trustees do when the Marks and Spencer luxury biscuit selection get pulled out several times per year but how hard can it be to benchmark against each other, and actually if the aim is to provide the best value for money then as a trustee I'd have thought you'd want to do that.
I'd want to know that my AA was paying the correct rate for its EC135, MD900, etc (Especially since half the time you are actually dealing with the same operator - how hard would that be to see that you're paying the same for your 135 as the next guy is from Bond??) I'd want to ensure that my overheads were inline with the rest, and actually I'd be pushing to meet with the other operators / charities to standardise the format of reporting so that it was as easier for me to read-across all charities.
The compensation to some of these entities is on a par at director level to FTSE250 organisations and yet these things have revenues in the £2-4m range; that is a joke.
You asked what I was getting at and I suppose the title of the thread says it all - are UK AA having it off? Looking at a range of P&L's some most certainly are and actually long term it will blow up in the face of AA collectively as one or two bad apples will turn the public off.
You might also notice that despite me asking several times you still haven't answered the question "what metric is used to measure value"...
I was thinking you might be able to offer something like £X per rotary hour is the industry mean and we are within X% of that. Or X% of income generation spending to income received... etc....
Finally if you believe in the "because I'm not convinced that 'what is right for patients' is driving his agenda" statement re: TCAA then wouldn't you consider it a good thing to reveal what you believe his agenda is, and if that isn't noble to raise it as a worry/complaint?
I'm not sure what you trustees do when the Marks and Spencer luxury biscuit selection get pulled out several times per year but how hard can it be to benchmark against each other, and actually if the aim is to provide the best value for money then as a trustee I'd have thought you'd want to do that.
I'd want to know that my AA was paying the correct rate for its EC135, MD900, etc (Especially since half the time you are actually dealing with the same operator - how hard would that be to see that you're paying the same for your 135 as the next guy is from Bond??) I'd want to ensure that my overheads were inline with the rest, and actually I'd be pushing to meet with the other operators / charities to standardise the format of reporting so that it was as easier for me to read-across all charities.
The compensation to some of these entities is on a par at director level to FTSE250 organisations and yet these things have revenues in the £2-4m range; that is a joke.
You asked what I was getting at and I suppose the title of the thread says it all - are UK AA having it off? Looking at a range of P&L's some most certainly are and actually long term it will blow up in the face of AA collectively as one or two bad apples will turn the public off.
You might also notice that despite me asking several times you still haven't answered the question "what metric is used to measure value"...
I was thinking you might be able to offer something like £X per rotary hour is the industry mean and we are within X% of that. Or X% of income generation spending to income received... etc....
Finally if you believe in the "because I'm not convinced that 'what is right for patients' is driving his agenda" statement re: TCAA then wouldn't you consider it a good thing to reveal what you believe his agenda is, and if that isn't noble to raise it as a worry/complaint?
Last edited by Pittsextra; 28th May 2013 at 17:23.
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206Jock,
When you say the board of trustees of an air ambulance has no direct relationships with management team personnel what do you mean exactly?
I'm curious as 2 members of LAA board are directly involved with the management of the operation.
When you say the board of trustees of an air ambulance has no direct relationships with management team personnel what do you mean exactly?
I'm curious as 2 members of LAA board are directly involved with the management of the operation.
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206 jock, applause for your contribution of time to the charity sector, ignore the personal snipes from the geniuses of t'Internet.
On the subject of benchmarking, it's something my industry is rightly obsessed with and notoriously bad at. Apples need to be compared with apples. On the financial side, my company only started benchmarking against competition about 5 yr ago on departmental internal revenue of circa 1bn GBP and we are still comparing apples with pears
Remember there are only two types who can truly run an organisation efficiently: anonymous commentators on Internet and tabloid journalists.
On the subject of benchmarking, it's something my industry is rightly obsessed with and notoriously bad at. Apples need to be compared with apples. On the financial side, my company only started benchmarking against competition about 5 yr ago on departmental internal revenue of circa 1bn GBP and we are still comparing apples with pears
Remember there are only two types who can truly run an organisation efficiently: anonymous commentators on Internet and tabloid journalists.
Last edited by FairWeatherFlyer; 28th May 2013 at 22:51. Reason: adding appropriate endnote
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Benchmarking would be nice for HEMS pilots. Now Multi-Crew night ops are entering the fray how about paying Multi-Crew wages given there's a mass exodus to the North Sea. Even the IR guys operating 2 crew in the south eastern based red machine have not had a proper rise in wages in line with the rest of the helicopter industry for many years.......
End rant.
End rant.
I would agree also. Look at all the CEO's of banks and big businesses who are retiring/resigning/falling on their swords during the spring clean this economic crash has brought about.
It really would seem anyone could run businesses better than the so called 'experts'. One doesn't necessarily need to be business savvy - try charismatic and sciolistic perhaps.........................
It really would seem anyone could run businesses better than the so called 'experts'. One doesn't necessarily need to be business savvy - try charismatic and sciolistic perhaps.........................
TC
Not sure all the police authorities could hold their hands up as being efficient. Can think of one who employed 2 full time engineers to look after 1 x 105 and then 1 x BK117. The machines were either that unreliable or people weren't doing that much, nice work if you can get it ???
There are a lot of people on here who don't have a clue about running an operation, they need to speak to those who have to write the cheques from their own account, then they will really know how much these things cost !
Not sure all the police authorities could hold their hands up as being efficient. Can think of one who employed 2 full time engineers to look after 1 x 105 and then 1 x BK117. The machines were either that unreliable or people weren't doing that much, nice work if you can get it ???
There are a lot of people on here who don't have a clue about running an operation, they need to speak to those who have to write the cheques from their own account, then they will really know how much these things cost !
From myside its less about being an expert in the operation and more a question of "why is X AA able to operate for so much less than Y"... the costs are nothing about helicopters tbh as in the context of AA the helicopter running bit is classed as charitable spending.
Hughes500 long time no see?
To be fair and in defence of the "Police Authorities" (who don't exist now that the Police Commissioners have arrived), it isn't them who hire and fire. In the example you gave (D and C Air Support many many years ago, I suspect), the PA would have approved the advice of the then UEO. He subsequently went on to become quite influential elsewhere.
In those days the police were still learning about how to run helo ops including the overheads etc.
Nowadays there is no way on earth that PA's would be seen to waste money because of all the scrutiny associated with their funding. Also - don't forget: they talk to each other, and this is the big difference - all their dirty washing is aired in public whereas with the air ambulances, they dont and it isn't
To be fair and in defence of the "Police Authorities" (who don't exist now that the Police Commissioners have arrived), it isn't them who hire and fire. In the example you gave (D and C Air Support many many years ago, I suspect), the PA would have approved the advice of the then UEO. He subsequently went on to become quite influential elsewhere.
In those days the police were still learning about how to run helo ops including the overheads etc.
Nowadays there is no way on earth that PA's would be seen to waste money because of all the scrutiny associated with their funding. Also - don't forget: they talk to each other, and this is the big difference - all their dirty washing is aired in public whereas with the air ambulances, they dont and it isn't
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 29th May 2013 at 10:45.
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The childrens air ambulance is within the numbers for Derby and Leics..
Isn't the financial link and extrapolation of figures between TCAA and Derby/Rutland/Leic mentioned in post 3 a bit thin, as the only mention of TCAA in that report is, "In October 2011 we instigated talks with the Childrens Air Ambulance, a formal transfer of undertakings occurred on 1st January 2012."
Can you not get the figures from it's own page?
1111780 - THE CHILDREN'S AIR AMBULANCE
THE CHILDREN'S AIR AMBULANCE WILL PROVIDE "FREE" LIFESAVING FLIGHTS TO ANY CHILD BETWEEN THE AGES OF NEWBORN AND 16 YEARS WHO REQUIRE IMMEDIATE TRANSFER TO A "HOSPITAL OF EXCELLENCE" IN ORDER TO RECEIVE LIFESAVING TREATMENT.
...or looking at its own website; TCAA | About Us | The Air Ambulance Service ... as TCAA are using TAAS's charity number, they should be part of
1098874 - THE AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE
OPERATOR OF TWO HELICOPTER EMERGENCY SERVICES, AND THE CHILDREN'S AIR AMBULANCE TRANSFER SERVICE.
...who used to be;
1144929 - TAA SERVICE
Other names
THE AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE (OLD NAME)
T.A.A.S (OLD NAME)
...So, who is;
1138457 - LUCY AIR AMBULANCE FOR CHILDREN CHARITY
LUCY AIR AMBULANCE FOR CHILDREN CHARITY HAS BEEN SET UP TO BE THE FIRST, DEDICATED AIR TRANSFER SERVICE FOR NEONATAL AND CHILDREN UP TO 16 YEARS OLD ACROSS THE UNITED KINGDOM.
Anyhoo, pitts, any chance of a separate TCAA %-age breakdown as in post 1?
I keep getting the charity bags through the door and seeing the collection pots next to 'self standing air ambulance' collection pots and wonder what's going on!
Hey - i took their charity number off their site but I think there has been some formalisation of things, from the TAAS accounts:-
“In October 2011 we instigated talks with the Childrens Air Ambulance, a formal transfer of undertakings occurred on 1"January 2012. We also created a new identity in The Air Ambulance Service to reflect our new national chanty status, and in April 2012 effected a formal change of the charity's name.”
Although if you punch the number 1111780 into the charitycommission site (link in first post) it looks pretty grim... £563k raised, which cost £427k to get and £61k spent on charitable spending...and even that seems to be debatable when you look at the accounts ,especially since no helicopter existed at the time.
To quote the accounts prior to the "merger":-
No leasing arrangement for an aircraft has been entered into at the time of publication
It seems a grubby business.
“In October 2011 we instigated talks with the Childrens Air Ambulance, a formal transfer of undertakings occurred on 1"January 2012. We also created a new identity in The Air Ambulance Service to reflect our new national chanty status, and in April 2012 effected a formal change of the charity's name.”
Although if you punch the number 1111780 into the charitycommission site (link in first post) it looks pretty grim... £563k raised, which cost £427k to get and £61k spent on charitable spending...and even that seems to be debatable when you look at the accounts ,especially since no helicopter existed at the time.
To quote the accounts prior to the "merger":-
An appropriate aircraft has been identified to service the needs of the Children's Air Ambulance service.
Research is on-going to ascertain the acquisition and fitting out of appropriate medical equipment and
furnishings.
Research is on-going to ascertain the acquisition and fitting out of appropriate medical equipment and
furnishings.
No leasing arrangement for an aircraft has been entered into at the time of publication
It seems a grubby business.
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I have concerns.
And it's not just "is this burning sensation normal"?
The Children's Air Ambulance, is there a real need? I may be a little cynical but I get the feeling that it is just a marketing ploy to tug on the heart strings.
Having done a little research, I have found that there are very few Children's hospitals Nicu's Picu's around the country with dedicated helipads. Also that the amount of transfers/repatriations are so low that it could easily be covered (already are) by the Air Ambulance community as it stands.
I'm all for giving sick children a ride in a helicopter and my views may be tainted by previous incarnations of the Children's Air Ambulance, but when there is so much discussion about AA funding and how the money is spent. Why has nobody asked if we need another one?
The Children's Air Ambulance, is there a real need? I may be a little cynical but I get the feeling that it is just a marketing ploy to tug on the heart strings.
Having done a little research, I have found that there are very few Children's hospitals Nicu's Picu's around the country with dedicated helipads. Also that the amount of transfers/repatriations are so low that it could easily be covered (already are) by the Air Ambulance community as it stands.
I'm all for giving sick children a ride in a helicopter and my views may be tainted by previous incarnations of the Children's Air Ambulance, but when there is so much discussion about AA funding and how the money is spent. Why has nobody asked if we need another one?
Last edited by Tq Monster; 30th May 2013 at 12:48.
Sorry TM
I am no apologist for this charity but inter hospital paediatric transfers are well demonstrated to be necessary and to save lives. Both neonates and children need transfers to specialised units. We have national guidelines for standards and these transfers need specialised staff and equipment not available on HEMS
You are correct that that many hospitals do not have dedicated helipads some 30 years after it was made a national requirement to consider their provision, but this effects adult transfers as well and is not in itself a reason to deny these patients dedicated transfers.
I am no apologist for this charity but inter hospital paediatric transfers are well demonstrated to be necessary and to save lives. Both neonates and children need transfers to specialised units. We have national guidelines for standards and these transfers need specialised staff and equipment not available on HEMS
You are correct that that many hospitals do not have dedicated helipads some 30 years after it was made a national requirement to consider their provision, but this effects adult transfers as well and is not in itself a reason to deny these patients dedicated transfers.
Yes, SAR helos often use Regent's Park as an LS for some London hospitals.
I am no apologist for this charity but inter hospital paediatric transfers are well demonstrated to be necessary and to save lives. Both neonates and children need transfers to specialised units. We have national guidelines for standards and these transfers need specialised staff and equipment not available on HEMS
You are correct that that many hospitals do not have dedicated helipads some 30 years after it was made a national requirement to consider their provision, but this effects adult transfers as well and is not in itself a reason to deny these patients dedicated transfers.
You are correct that that many hospitals do not have dedicated helipads some 30 years after it was made a national requirement to consider their provision, but this effects adult transfers as well and is not in itself a reason to deny these patients dedicated transfers.
Yes, SAR helos often use Regent's Park as an LS for some London hospitals.
Thank you.
Rotary is not too slow - these transfers are never emergencies in the medical sense although they may be urgent. Minutes do not matter and we work hard to prevent rushing. However beyond a certain distance the cost and (almost) door to door transfer of rotary is balanced by fixed wing. We have been operating both for almost thirty years.
Sadly military aircraft are not ideal. They may be free to the NHS at point of use, they may fly when civilian aircraft cannot, and they may be big, BUT vibration levels are physiologically damaging to sedated patients, noise levels make monitoring more difficult. The lack of fixed equipment results in problems with security, power and gas provision plus in practical terms a less comprehensive module. The medical teams can never have the familiarity and experience of the airframe that they do with their own aircraft and it remains a hotch pitch
The SAR posters will attempt to shoot me down, telling me how many 'successful' transfers they have undertaken, but the level of medical care will always be compromised. This country should have dedicated ITU inter hospital transfer systems. We don't use tanks instead of ground ambulances and nor should we use SAR because the state refuses to meet its responsibilities. We undertook such transfers for almost 20 years but the NHS repeatedly refused to pay
Sadly military aircraft are not ideal. They may be free to the NHS at point of use, they may fly when civilian aircraft cannot, and they may be big, BUT vibration levels are physiologically damaging to sedated patients, noise levels make monitoring more difficult. The lack of fixed equipment results in problems with security, power and gas provision plus in practical terms a less comprehensive module. The medical teams can never have the familiarity and experience of the airframe that they do with their own aircraft and it remains a hotch pitch
The SAR posters will attempt to shoot me down, telling me how many 'successful' transfers they have undertaken, but the level of medical care will always be compromised. This country should have dedicated ITU inter hospital transfer systems. We don't use tanks instead of ground ambulances and nor should we use SAR because the state refuses to meet its responsibilities. We undertook such transfers for almost 20 years but the NHS repeatedly refused to pay