Norwegian Air ambulance - nice balancing act !

[SASless]

I have a thick skin....and when you elect to be provocative you know in advance you will generate all kinds of responses. Some will present countering views and do so without including a personal attack, some will put words into your mouth either deliberately or because they failed to grasp the intent of your post, and some who are well known will just start with the insults and offer up drivel.

If after all this....folks got to thinking a bit about how they do things...all the slings and arrows even the odd harpoon or two were worth it.

Some Mates of mine killed themselves by making errors in judgement....and I think none the less of them....but miss them s as they were good solid folk and professional pilots.

I survived my bad thinking out of pure darn luck more than a few times.

BastOn....I thank you for the support....and perhaps one day we can share a Pint or three. Anyone that can run over a Harrier in a Wessex and tell the tale is a blessed Man. How you got the Wessex going that fast escapes me however! I want to rub your shoulder and see if some of that good fortune rubs off on me!

No matter how long you been doing this game....re-thinking how you play the game never hurts.....Complacency kills.

It is uncomfortable when your comfy routine gets jumbled up....thus I can understand some negative reaction to suggestions there might be a better way.

[SilsoeSid]

Thing is though, as far as this thread is concerned, for the Norwegian Air Ambulance in the initial post...there wasn't a better way!

I would have added 'IMHO', however of all the pprune -ers here and the countless others that had a looksie, only 2 have slated the crews actions, one of whom would have sacked the pilot. But hey, let's not stop the minority having the loudest voice!

[bast0n]

Silsoe

If you're still flying bast0n, are you sure about that....?

No, I am not still flying-(still driving a '66 Lotus Elan though) - coming up 71 - but going to the Jungly dinner on Thursday and will have a bit of a hooooly.

Looking back at SASLESS over the years - yes I would like to meet him and yes I would be happy to fly with him. He has an irreverant attitude modulated by experience and the ability to survive that I admire. My survival that he mentions was luck not skill.

[handysnaks]

Bast0n, I am still flying (occasionally), and I'm with you. I would like to meet sasless as well. I keep trying to find something outrageously offensive in his first post on this thread, but can't! In particular, I think he has at least tried to maintain a polite demeanour even when the swell of opinion (on this thread), was against him!

However, as some of his stateside buddies seem to imply that he's a bit slow to get his wallet out I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for his round!!
just to lighten the mood

[SASless]

Chuks is not a credible source!

[sunnywa]

To the helo driver, IMHO a great job to quickly get in and out safely to drop the doc to a patient who was in an unknown state. Minimum time in danger zone.

[SASless]

Snitched from a new thread here....but it does seem so appropriate for this one considering some of the comments made by those who scoff at well controlled LZ's.

My question is did the car run into the Helicopter or did the Helicopter set down on the Car?

Übersichtsseite: Hubschrauberflügel in Windschutzscheibe | MAIN-POST Nachrichten für Franken, Bayern und die Welt

[SARWannabe]

Oops. Bet he feels a bit silly for doing that

Anyway, this side of the pond, we have a little less in the way of clear area space and spare resources to call on (Fire trucks by the dozen, "STAND BACK SIR, STAND BACK, WE NEED YOU 300 FEET AWAY!!" LZ Shoutsmen(?), Mobile runways etc....). That said, let's not suggest that proportional degrees of crowd control are not applied when they can be. Important jobs are undertaken regularly, efficiently, and with no disregard for proportionate levels safety, if however every landing and take-off needed to wait for the full ground cavalry to march in and shout at people the services might well be a lot less efficient. To my knowledge London HEMS, who have been doing this since 1989, and reduced trauma deaths in London and it's major ring road (M25) by more than 50%, have never compromised the life of a crew member, or 3rd party in the process.

[SilsoeSid]

To my knowledge London HEMS, who have been doing this since 1989, and reduced trauma deaths in London and it's major ring road (M25) by more than 50%, have never compromised the life of a crew member, or 3rd party in the process.

Flying chunk of metal tests air ambulance pilot

THE skill of London’s air ambulance pilot was tested as a difficult landing went horribly wrong in Welling High Street.

The helicopter was responding to a serious road accident involving a pedestrian and a bus on Saturday afternoon.

It was attempting to land in the high street when a chunk of metal flew off a nearby building, smashing into the rotor blades.

The helicopter landed under a shower of metal, its rotor blades mangled, and was grounded for the rest of the day.

Eye-witness Brenda Laning said: "The helicopter was circling around for a while before it came in very low. It was hovering for a while and the force of the wind from it was amazing.

"The buildings nearby were shaking and the roof of one of the shops nearby started to bow. A massive chunk of metal from one of the shops flew off and hit the helicopter with a massive bang."

London's Air Ambulance

Christine Margetts, our Community Fundraising Manager and founder of that stall, talks about the Charity’s early fundraising efforts – from having her stall blown off by the landing aircraft, through to securing the first Rapid Response Car,...

[SARWannabe]

Precisely - a pretty tidy record if thats the worst incident in 24 years of operations, landing at ad-hoc, unsecured, unprepared, incredibly small sites. No loss of life, no injury sustained by 3rd parties or crew, and something I'm sure they've learnt a lot from. A different picture to other parts of the EMS world, and in one of the most congested operating environments. Keep up the great work.

p.s. aren't the eye witness accounts just amazing - shaking buildings and bowing roof tops, from a 902 lol

p.p.s "The helicopter landed under a shower of metal, its rotor blades mangled, and was grounded for the rest of the day" omitting "The air ambulance was repaired over the weekend and was back in operation on Monday". Cant have been that badly 'mangled'

[Bertie Thruster]

Luck has been with them though, on occasion:



1.5 mt x .5mt x 5mm aluminium 'KwikFit' board in the process of being chopped by the main blades. (blue piece still visible in the disc)

They landed safely in the forecourt but I understood the blades were 'written off'.

[SASless]

They could have shut the door on their way out too!

[SilsoeSid]

SASless;

They could have shut the door on their way out too!

Lol

[TomAndreas-NOR]

SASless

First of all, I'll disclose that I am not involved in HEMS. I am a greenhorn, having just about 800hrs of utility flying with the 350, that 800 is including flightschool. So I am as green as they come.

I am not a Hero Saving Lives kind of thinking guy.... just a Helicopter Pilot providing safe efficient medical transportation thinking kind of guy.

Bravo, I love that attitude. The base which good airmanship should be built on.

So....lets see here.....Minor Injuries, Patient taken by road ambulance after being extracted from the vehicle (how long did the extraction take?), No EMT's in Norway, sounds like there is no radio comms between ground units and the helicopter (or am I wrong on that?), No LZ was set up for the helicopter (Are Ground Units trained and equipped to do that?), Where did the helicopter land to retrieve the Doctor?

As several others have commented already, in many cases the helicopter is first at the scene. The reason is the geography and topography of Norway, with many living in sparsely populated areas, far away from EMT's. What would you do if you were first on the scene of a car wreck? 100x100feet of flat fields available, ground units 40 minutes out.

What level of equipment is the aircraft equipped with, what does the Doctor carry in his Trauma Bag, and how much can he do by himself?

A doctor can actually save a life, unlike the pilot who only facilitates his transport to the scene. (Per your first quote).

My criticism of the video action is not directed at the individual Pilot....but at a system that forces such kinds of flying be done in order to carry out the Operation. If being critical stimulates some thinking about how to do things a bit different but a lot safer happens....score one to me.

How in the world can you judge a system from watching one video? In Norway we ONLY utilize twin-engine IFR aircraft with NVG capabilities and 24hrs of service. So if you have a problem with the Brits, take it up with them. I can't see how flying single-engine helicopters at night would come out better in a risk assessment when compared to this maneuver. And these guys are grown-ups who factor in the risks and acts accordingly. From what I have read from several US accident reports, the problem with external pressure is yours.

All this being said, I understand that part of your motivation for provoking is getting people thinking, and maybe adapt a safer mindset if a flawed existed. But there is a difference between getting people thinking and getting them annoyed...hehe...maybe your wisdom would reach further if it wasn't shrouded in what can come across as disrespect.

Have a great weekend!

Tom

[TomAndreas-NOR]

You there SASless?

[homonculus]

SARWannabe

I would be interested to see your evidence for London HEMS reducing the trauma death rate by 50%. The definitive Sheffield study stated it might save a couple of lives a year. In fact as there is no double blinded control study we just dont know.

I do remember a lamp post being taken out outside Charing Cross hospital

and the original 365 rolling backwards into some bushes

and several more....

[jimf671]

Returning to the original illustration, I had been wondering where I had seen the balancing act before. In fact a similar balancing act is portrayed by another Norwegian air ambulance aircraft in a presentation given by their Oyvind Juell.

Considering the type of roads and size of the fjord features, this type of action is not at all surprising. In Scotland, roads like the A82 and A830 have similar situations for a couple of km but the scale of Norwegian features is much greater. I have been impressed by the Norwegians approach to training for some of their riskier techniques and their typical joined-up thinking aout co-operation between air and land ambulance assets and SAR assets.

==========================================

The measured Norwegian approach contrasts sharply with some of what is happening in England. I think that getting the kit and the qualified to a serious casualty quickly in a west European city does not require a helicopter. It is mainly showing off. The few cases that benefit from air transport may not be worth the additional risks and costs of those operations that do not.

[500guy]

I dont have EMS experience but I'm speaking for utility company who does about 100 of skid transfers a day to tower tops at 100'-200' agl.

Its all about trianing. If this company prepares pilots to do such toe-ins it is hardly any more dangerous than a normal landing.

We may crash a lot more helicopters in the US, but we fly a lot more too. Im not sure the accident rates in the UK are any better.

[jayteeto]

You are correct, you do a LOT more flying, however your accident rate per flying hour is higher. Someone who likes stats has shown that in the past. We have a VERY low accident rate in the UK.

[helmet fire]

As is normal, we will all see this landing against the context of our own experiences and systems without, in my view, appreciating the differences at hand. Normal human behaviour - and you can see that in the normal banter you lot have across the Atlantic trying to compare two totally different systems and cultures.

A universal here is not always a universal there.

From my perspective, SASless is right to question this landing based on his system and culture - it just would not be considered good airmanship with the constraints in that system. However, some of the constraints that I do not believe necessarily apply to the system in question, but that are certainly shaping that reaction are:

1. [*]

I know we will all hold the same views we held prior to reading this whole thread. But please reflect on this: each scenario has many many cultural and systemic influences that may make a particular manoeuvre or practice safe in one place yet silly and dangerous in another.

My personal example is on two of our EMS operations in Australia. in one we get airborne extremely quickly, within 4 minutes. In the other we take 30 plus. The 4 minute response is perfectly safe in the way it is set up SYTEMICALLY and limited to only certain jobs, but it would be completely unsafe in the other system which requires 30 mins to be safe due to the unpredictable and marginal nature of the scenarios. They are both as efficient and as safe as each other for WHAT THEY DO WITHIN THEIR CONSTRAINTS. But one system cannot look to the other and say "unsafe" or "too slow".

Same, I think, in this case. By all means ask questions about why this technique was used and considered safe, but lets not use that questioning to assume they were at fault because we dont do business that way. If we approach it that way, I believe a far better discussion would result.

For the record, good job guys, I would have no problem doing the same given your system and your capabilities. I would not have done this in the USA, nor in parts of the UK where the helicopter brings a lower level of care AFTER the ground response and where crews are not trained in the procedure.