UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
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Hear Hear Handysnaks. SURELY it's time to stop sniping from the trenches, give the new guard a fair crack at the whip, and celebrate the good work they are already doing.
Take a look at the Australian model for an interesting glimpse of how well a civilian SAR service can work. (and thanks to the VIC police helicopter boys who pulled my unconscious - carbon monoxide poisoning - mate off his boat this week, whilst it was doing 10 knots in circles; GREAT work, you saved his life. Bravo Zulu).
Talking of celebration you might be interested to listen to BBC Radio 4 this Sunday when Sue MacGregor's programme "The Reunion" brings together five of us from Fastnet '79. It was a sobering experience to record it alongside Nick Ward, the last man to be pulled out alive that day, and the author of the extraordinary book "Left For Dead"
SAR is about PEOPLE who have lived for several decades beyond what they might otherwise have done, due to the skills and dedication of many of the contributors to this forum, both military and civilian. It's about highly motivated people working together to achieve a common and worthwhile aim. IMHO this forum should begin to work in the same vein.
Take a look at the Australian model for an interesting glimpse of how well a civilian SAR service can work. (and thanks to the VIC police helicopter boys who pulled my unconscious - carbon monoxide poisoning - mate off his boat this week, whilst it was doing 10 knots in circles; GREAT work, you saved his life. Bravo Zulu).
Talking of celebration you might be interested to listen to BBC Radio 4 this Sunday when Sue MacGregor's programme "The Reunion" brings together five of us from Fastnet '79. It was a sobering experience to record it alongside Nick Ward, the last man to be pulled out alive that day, and the author of the extraordinary book "Left For Dead"
SAR is about PEOPLE who have lived for several decades beyond what they might otherwise have done, due to the skills and dedication of many of the contributors to this forum, both military and civilian. It's about highly motivated people working together to achieve a common and worthwhile aim. IMHO this forum should begin to work in the same vein.
JerryG
it's a pity that the truth re the Fastnet has been suppressed, and you were too junior at the time to know what was going on.
The RN controlled the whole debacle and the professional assets of the RAF were rejected - to quote Culdrose Cdr Air "keep your nose out, it's a navy show". I had three SAR Wessex crews under my command and ready to go from Valley. Two Whirlwinds at Brawdy were available and at least one new Sea King HAR3 at Culdrose, manned by the most experienced RAF crews (instructors), was ordered to return to dispersal when they self launched.
Following the Fastnet tragedy, RN SAR came under the OPCON of the RAF RCC's.
I explained this to Nick Ward who was a tad surprised; unsurprisingly the BBC were not interested!
it's a pity that the truth re the Fastnet has been suppressed, and you were too junior at the time to know what was going on.
The RN controlled the whole debacle and the professional assets of the RAF were rejected - to quote Culdrose Cdr Air "keep your nose out, it's a navy show". I had three SAR Wessex crews under my command and ready to go from Valley. Two Whirlwinds at Brawdy were available and at least one new Sea King HAR3 at Culdrose, manned by the most experienced RAF crews (instructors), was ordered to return to dispersal when they self launched.
Following the Fastnet tragedy, RN SAR came under the OPCON of the RAF RCC's.
I explained this to Nick Ward who was a tad surprised; unsurprisingly the BBC were not interested!
A few 'ifs and maybes' at the moment but it looks like there will be a SAR base at Lydd for about 12 months. Then if Manston can be reopened it will move there.
Manston Airport campaign gets 'double boost' from government - BBC News
mmitch.
Manston Airport campaign gets 'double boost' from government - BBC News
mmitch.
It's not as if there wasn't enough time to get this sorted out before the 'no less capable service' was rolled out.
Perhaps they should have prioritised getting a SQEP with extensive SAR NVD instructional experience into position 18 months ago......perhaps someone with a proven track record of delivering both initial and front-line SAR NVD training and extensive operational experience to back it up
Or maybe it is just regulations (which have had even longer to get sorted) that are holding them back!
Either way, the night capability, especially in poor weather overland, is seriously degraded and someone needs to get a grip - there is plenty of darkness at lower latitudes even in the height of summer so how are tricky night jobs going to get done then without NVD?
Perhaps they should have prioritised getting a SQEP with extensive SAR NVD instructional experience into position 18 months ago......perhaps someone with a proven track record of delivering both initial and front-line SAR NVD training and extensive operational experience to back it up
Or maybe it is just regulations (which have had even longer to get sorted) that are holding them back!
Either way, the night capability, especially in poor weather overland, is seriously degraded and someone needs to get a grip - there is plenty of darkness at lower latitudes even in the height of summer so how are tricky night jobs going to get done then without NVD?
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They'll be carried out without the sour grapes and closed mind that infect your repetitious posts Crab. Was it not that long ago that "offshore SAR is impractical without a 360 degree radar"?
So it is my closed mind that has led to the new SAR service being launched ( and the mil aircraft and crews stood down) without NVD capability is it???
A bit like my closed mind that led the HMCG to launch the 139 into service without any night over water capability a few years ago.
As for the radar, not impractical, just not as safe
A bit like my closed mind that led the HMCG to launch the 139 into service without any night over water capability a few years ago.
As for the radar, not impractical, just not as safe
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Last time I looked at my payslip your name was not there Cyclic.
If you need to know about ANVIS then write to the manufacturers.
If you need to know about ANVIS then write to the manufacturers.
Most of us 'contributed' in a previous military life too. Which is why the new service will run perfectly well in more capable aircraft flown by competent crews who all want to do a professional job of work. Judging by the recent tasks completed (including one at night believe it or not) that is exactly what is happening.
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Sorry Al-bert, I can't let that go by without some very specific responses
Junior ... very possibly, but I was a bit busy that day to be arguing politics on a telephone!
136 lives saved in one day is a "debacle" is it? I'm afraid you go beyond the bounds of inter-service banter Sir.
Wrong. The RAF Nimrod, as an appropriate asset to the task, was gratefully received by us all and did an outstandingly professional job
The boys at Valley were admired by us all for their mountain expertise. Furthermore, although I concede that I'm guessing here, Wings would have been making a balanced judgement between Wessex from afar versus Seakings on his own doorstep manned by pilots whom he knew (and whose suitability he could therefore judge) personally.
WHIRLWNDS! ... on Fastnet day? ... you cannot be serious.
I reiterate my plea that this forum be used for handing experience forward. In that context why don't we old f^rts put aside 35 year old (plus some) grievances and discuss how that event would and should be handled if it happened again tomorrow within the new SAR framework?
it's a pity that the truth re the Fastnet has been suppressed, and you were too junior at the time to know what was going on.
The RN controlled the whole debacle
and the professional assets of the RAF were rejected
I had three SAR Wessex crews under my command and ready to go from Valley.
Two Whirlwinds at Brawdy were available
I reiterate my plea that this forum be used for handing experience forward. In that context why don't we old f^rts put aside 35 year old (plus some) grievances and discuss how that event would and should be handled if it happened again tomorrow within the new SAR framework?
Is it banter .....or is it boring? I'm losing the will to live over this subject.
The UK is/has been undergoing a dilution of assets (mil or civvy) in various shapes or forms since (probably before) 2007. For reasons other than the financial meltdown we found ourselves in (this simply accelerated the process). We (the UK) have outgrown our usefulness from a global positioning perspective and we need to restructure ourselves accordingly and align our current status with those already aligned to the 'new world order' (namely: Norway, Denmark, Germany et al). We cannot continue to run a world leading military order -simples. So paring back is the way to go. RAF SAR lost its raison d'etre - god knows how many years ago. It was surplus to requirement (as a military outfit) and several senior officers and politicians knew it. It just needed the right moment for it to be tipped over the political edge.
The government continued to squeeze further savings after the debacle that was SAR(H) in 2010. - Realising that this was far to generous a package handing over and so they grabbed the opportunity to 'adjust' SARH2 to within an inch of its monetary life by dicing up the new contract into much more manageable chunks. And so we are now left with a wafer thin (rescue) service like a lot of other 'public' services which will almost certainly not stand the test of time (look at the railways, GP practices, social care) without further financial injections at later stages or Bristow operating only to the bare minimum of its contractual obligations - and you can't blame them. Blame the government.
Further - SAR is a 'hidden' public service - the man on the street doesn't have the faintest idea what is going on in SAR, doesn't care and it isn't a vote winner.....don't expect miracles or even a par with its previous incarnation. Voters don't care.........................
The UK is/has been undergoing a dilution of assets (mil or civvy) in various shapes or forms since (probably before) 2007. For reasons other than the financial meltdown we found ourselves in (this simply accelerated the process). We (the UK) have outgrown our usefulness from a global positioning perspective and we need to restructure ourselves accordingly and align our current status with those already aligned to the 'new world order' (namely: Norway, Denmark, Germany et al). We cannot continue to run a world leading military order -simples. So paring back is the way to go. RAF SAR lost its raison d'etre - god knows how many years ago. It was surplus to requirement (as a military outfit) and several senior officers and politicians knew it. It just needed the right moment for it to be tipped over the political edge.
The government continued to squeeze further savings after the debacle that was SAR(H) in 2010. - Realising that this was far to generous a package handing over and so they grabbed the opportunity to 'adjust' SARH2 to within an inch of its monetary life by dicing up the new contract into much more manageable chunks. And so we are now left with a wafer thin (rescue) service like a lot of other 'public' services which will almost certainly not stand the test of time (look at the railways, GP practices, social care) without further financial injections at later stages or Bristow operating only to the bare minimum of its contractual obligations - and you can't blame them. Blame the government.
Further - SAR is a 'hidden' public service - the man on the street doesn't have the faintest idea what is going on in SAR, doesn't care and it isn't a vote winner.....don't expect miracles or even a par with its previous incarnation. Voters don't care.........................
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TC - Agree with you wholeheartedly. The easiest way to determine whether a subject has the interest of the public vote is to see how many column inches the editors allow for the subject. Not seen an awful lot in the general media & even the specialist media is not really picking up on it. Apart from the die hards on here & linkedIn etc and Bristow public relations putting out the odd rescue story when they happen for the same people to 'like' no one cares....yesterday's news is today's chip wrapper! Shall we all move on now?
and you can't blame them. Blame the government.
If it ends up as a 'wafer-thin' rescue service that needs bailing out when it becomes a political football, what exactly has been achieved??? Certainly nothing for the good of the country, its populace or travellers around and across our SAR Region of Responsibility.
So, to paraphrase Edmund Burke ' All that is required for crap things to happen is for those who know better to stand and watch politicians F**k them up'. Sad old world really.
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No crab - you still cant really blame Bristow. Perhaps blame those that reviewed the bids and accepted theirs as compliant & achievable.....although to be fair apart from a few commentators on here who may or may not have much fact to base their comments on, there is little factual evidence that suggests the Bristow operation so far is non compliant. The lack of 189 flying has been managed appropriately with S92 cover which is still compliant...
SW
SW
It is too easy to blame those who reviewed and check the bids for compliance - I know some people who were involved and it was a nightmare of a job checking every fact and figure (often stuff that should have been correctly referenced and presented by the bidder) - you have to draw your subject matter experts from far and wide and those with the best knowledge might not be the most experienced in this analysis discipline.
Whether or not the contract continues (or has even started) to be compliant will only be known by Bristow, HMCG and DfT so I won't expect any revelations here or in the press - we just won't know.
Whether or not the contract continues (or has even started) to be compliant will only be known by Bristow, HMCG and DfT so I won't expect any revelations here or in the press - we just won't know.