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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 31st Mar 2013, 10:52
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Now let's see. 2 per base except one base with 1 a/c equals max of 23 a/c. 7 of them are at about 99% and let's be kind to the old girl and say 75% (sniggers behind hand).

So therefore we are moving from a realistic availability of 19 a/c to 21 or 22a/c and its a reduction.

Tell me if I'm way off target here.

Last edited by jimf671; 31st Mar 2013 at 12:01.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 12:05
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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As an Innocent (tax paying) bystander can anyone tell me if there are real penalties if someone is left in a life raft or on a mountain for 'an unacceptable time'? As these days the 'blame game' involves passing the buck from one to another alah NHS, can we be any more sure of SAR?
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 12:12
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Just to stir the pot: if a 189 is down then I assume the S92 stands in short term (assuming the one spare 189 is allocated elsewhere/unserviceable) and equivalent/better coverage is available.

What if the S92 is down and no spare 92 is available? Aren't the two types of different ranges and capability, so the second aircraft at the affected location may be unable to achieve the range required for the job?

All the SAR machines being phased out are of a like type and like capability: to infer that numbers alone are the criteria to be considered seems a blinkered view. A 189 doesn't seem to be a subsitute for either an S92, nor for a SAR Sea King.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 12:31
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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You do the best with what you've got. When we had two types in yellow I certainly stood in for Sea Kings with a Wessex, whilst I can also remember a Sea King standing in for us when both our Wessi were u/s.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 12:42
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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John, both types have some capabilities that exceed the DfT spec. As I understand it, we can't be sure of the 189 range until SAR prototype PT6 has been put through its paces from May or June onwards but I'm not expecting small numbers. Likewise with cabin accommodation, the 189 is expected to exceed the Lot 2 spec and approach the Lot 1 spec. The S-92 is a fat bar steward and its accommodation cannot always be fully utilised if the fuel load is high.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 13:46
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Crab,

Do you use an Extension Ladder to get up on your Horse?
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 13:58
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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No - do you ever take your 'all is best in US' blinkers off?
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 14:00
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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As an Innocent (tax paying) bystander can anyone tell me if there are real penalties if someone is left in a life raft or on a mountain for 'an unacceptable time'?
Why are they going to wait for an unacceptable time?
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 14:13
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Just to confirm, there will be a duty and a spare aircraft at each base. It will take 2 aircraft to become unserviceable to take a base offline. In which case the spare from another base or the designated spare could be used.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 16:30
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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... tell me if there are real penalties if someone is left in a life raft or on a mountain for 'an unacceptable time'?

When the court hears that they did not provide a valid postcode in their Mayday, surely there will be no case to answer?
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 17:08
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Just because someone gets themselves into trouble, does not guarantee they will be rescued - it never has and it never will - you need the crew, the aircraft and the weather to perform the rescue.

The Captain of the aircraft is responsible for the safety of his aircraft and crew over and above that of the casualty and there will always be some situations where the risk to life of the crew outweighs the enormous will and desire to rescue the casualty.

Talk of unacceptable waits for rescue is pointless - someone who is bobbing in a raft (unless with a life threatening injury) is a far lower priority than someone clinging to a rockface who is a lower priority than someone being swept away in the dark by flood water.

Unless you want hundreds of helicopters ready to rescue everyone all the time, you will never give absolute certainty but, by the time you add in the RNLI, the Coastguard ground units, the mountain rescue organisations, the police, fire and ambulance crews and the many volunteers out there, the UK provides a fairly comprehensive safety net for those in trouble.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 17:19
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Just to confirm, there will be a duty and a spare aircraft at each base. It will take 2 aircraft to become unserviceable to take a base offline. In which case the spare from another base or the designated spare could be used.
Except they do not provide any additional crews to ferry the aircraft around. You do your 24 hour shift then go home, no air testing or ferrying etc because that will cost the company extra money in overtime!
Same goes for BIG jobs where in the past the military have sent 2nd aircraft from the same base (I have done lots of these), under the new regime, this will no longer happen. But hey the one aircraft they will provide can get there 20% quicker so it must be alright
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 17:30
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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But we haven't had the second standby crew availability (except on an opportunity basis) for a few years now and the serviceability at many flights has been patchy to say the least. In the last 12 years I have done less than a handful of seconds call-ins - it is not the same as it was in the 80s and 90s.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 17:45
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Crab says

it is not the same as it was in the 80s and 90s.
sadly not. WIWOW I can only remember a couple of times that we went 'off state' in 11 years, and many times both aircraft were out at the same time, and even a third if we had the Sqn/SARTS spare. Even at night, when we had no seconds commitment, I recall seconds being launched (Lockerbie, ferry Norona etc - and that was with Sea Kings, albeit somewhat younger SK's).
Great days, what went wrong? Ananuvver thing, in 21 years and 800+ 'rescues' I never got to rescue a FJ mate - they were all picked up by Boulmer, Leconfield or Colt - now what might be wrong with the new plan I wonder?
ps do we still have any FJ's?

Last edited by Al-bert; 31st Mar 2013 at 17:47.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 18:04
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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But we haven't had the second standby crew availability (except on an opportunity basis) for a few years now and the serviceability at many flights has been patchy to say the least. In the last 12 years I have done less than a handful of seconds call-ins - it is not the same as it was in the 80s and 90s.
But even in the last few months (floods, tornado crash at Lossiemouth etc) we've got second crews in even though we do not formally hold seconds! Partly because we are paid 24/7/365 and also because we don't have a union that would demand overtime pay.
I can't help feeling that our lack of pushing seconds is less to do with our manning crisis and more to do with easing the transition to the takeover where they will not provide a surge capability, that way they can say we haven't provided one for years when in actual fact we still can and do!
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 18:19
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Contractors?

Norma - did things change when they contractorised the ground crew?
It occurred just after I left but I can recall more than a few occasions when ALL our available GC's pitched in to keep the flight (and seconds under a certain wee Jock Chiefy) on state (WX gearbox change, double engine change in field etc). I also noted a 'commitment shift' in some of the younger aircrew I encountered (on Sea Kings) who were more interested in ISS, ATPL's or OU than keeping the flight 'on state' at all costs and some had an unfortunate willingness to snag the old girls!

Last edited by Al-bert; 31st Mar 2013 at 18:20.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 18:36
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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[quoteNorma - did things change when they contractorised the ground crew? ][/quote]

Certainly in the early days they did, before the company realised that they needed a) more people than they thought and b) people with SK experience!
They are better now. For the "big" jobs, they do not bring in all the off shift eng's (overtime you know) but they will provide a roaming "tiger team" if and where it is required.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 19:20
  #138 (permalink)  
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Now let's see. 2 per base except one base with 1 a/c equals max of 23 a/c. 7 of them are at about 99% and let's be kind to the old girl and say 75% (sniggers behind hand).

Spare a thought for the Irish SAR contract. 4 bases with only 5 S92 aircraft.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 19:29
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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If Charlie November had not ditched, perhaps the UK would have had a 15 aircraft contract.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 19:38
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Norma

The coast of paying overtime to a ferry crew is nothing compaired to the cost in fines with going off-state... it is a no brainer.....

I have have been part of a "seconds" coastguard crew, a situation arose with flooding, a base was asked if we could generate a second crew and aircraft, when we did.... we were told we were not needed and no request had ever been made.... Not one member of that crew asked about overtime or days off...

I think the Mentality of the people (pilots, rear-crew, engineers) doing the job is the same no matter what it says on the side of the aircraft.

.....and yes you do still have some FJ... we know as they are all going to be flying round the north off Scotland in about two weeks!

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