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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 14th Jul 2015, 14:09
  #2121 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting times

With bases going live[or not] it seems a fascinating time for the new CIVSAR. 3 types being juggled around and bases becoming active.
No doubt the AW189 will eventually mature into something of a sucess,but it may require a lot of patience.
The handling person i met yesterday at NWI said bristows have 3 SAR 189 based [and 2 crew change too] ,but SAR evaluation flying has slowed.
There was a St Athan bound 139 there too, somewhere, plus its partner which was last seen 'heading south'.
The 'kent question' makes for interesting reading, with the manston/lydd permanent base dithering. Maybe just build it at wattisham.....well done btw to 'B' flt for quietly plodding on.
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Old 14th Jul 2015, 23:25
  #2122 (permalink)  
 
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Presumably, that's the second pair (G-CILN and G-CILP) out and about?

Looking like three a/c at Lydd the last few days then.
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 20:14
  #2123 (permalink)  
 
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AW189

Had a look around the 189 at Yeovilton Air day; quite impressive actually. Bigger than I thought, although it was internally clean with no SAR Eqpt. Still the poor rear crew can't stand up, but I think it may have potential. Just need to get the bloody things off the production line......
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 20:50
  #2124 (permalink)  
 
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It's a Bristow plan to save cash - only PORGs can stand up in the back and they will probably work for less money
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 00:24
  #2125 (permalink)  
 
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The 189 rear cabin is the same volume as the S-70 Hawk's (without those Pavehawk auxiliary tanks!!) but a wee bit wider and wee bit shorter. There will be bags of room compared to what was required in the spec.


Does anyone know if the Bristow layout is
- still roof-mounted displays at rear corner seats?
- using any equipment mounted on the port door?
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 11:24
  #2126 (permalink)  
 
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On a different note (and more on topic) I am led to believe that the Humberside crew took 3 attempts to successfully perform a wet winching demo at the Armed Forces day at Cleethorpes.............
Not quite:

3 pre-planned runs to conduct basic winch man 'touch and goes' with the Cleethorpes ILB - something that unfortunately had yet to be practiced with this particular crew/boat prior to the event despite Humberside SAR's intensive training work-up period prior to going live back in April. Wets were certainly not intended or indeed planned.

1st run was simply a dummy to facilitate boat positioning training using weighted bag; 2nd and 3rd being live runs. All runs had to be curtailed earlier than planned due to the ILB running out of water depth below her keel due to tide conditions.

The ILB crew had never exercised with an S92 helo before and were training two new boat drivers on the day which was far from ideal hence they for-mated on the winch hook/winchman rather than remaining below the aircraft door as expected. They also did not follow the approach/departure SoP that is expected...

There is only so much you can do in a 'role demo' versus full on SAR demonstration. I'm sure the crowds were pleased to see their local SAR helicopter put in an appearance after all...
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 11:49
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So a pre planned exercise went TU, now for the real thing
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 12:02
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snaggletooth
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For "the real thing" if there was any question about the ILB crew's competency the helo crew would ask them to stop engines, deploy their sea anchor and treat it like a dinghy. Simples.
 
Old 24th Jul 2015, 14:11
  #2129 (permalink)  
 
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For "the real thing" if there was any question about the ILB crew's competency the helo crew would ask them to stop engines, deploy their sea anchor and treat it like a dinghy.
sometimes, don't you just wish there was a 'like' button on this miserable forum?
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 17:25
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For "the real thing" if there was any question about the ILB crew's competency the helo crew would ask them to stop engines, deploy their sea anchor and treat it like a dinghy. Simples.
Except, as I'm sure you know, that is far from simples as the downwash causes all sorts of problems and the run-in has to be quite fast and precise.

As for the role demo - RNLI crew inexperience doesn't answer why the winchman was 'bounced' horizontally into and out of the IRB - looks like a good way to pick up a back injury to me.

If they sit beneath the aircraft door, how will you get the winchman to the IRB since he will be behind the 'underhead' due to wind drag?
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 19:08
  #2131 (permalink)  
snaggletooth
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Except, as I'm sure you know, that is far from simples as the downwash causes all sorts of problems and the run-in has to be quite fast and precise.
Yes Crab, I know.

Sometimes, as I'm sure you know, it's not as easy as I make it look.
 
Old 25th Jul 2015, 01:17
  #2132 (permalink)  
 
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how will you get the winchman to the IRB since he will be behind the 'underhead' due to wind drag?
modern winchpersons - bunch of lightweights then?
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Old 25th Jul 2015, 07:35
  #2133 (permalink)  
 
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Sometimes, as I'm sure you know, it's not as easy as I make it look.
Yes, I understand - I've been doing the same for many years
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Old 26th Jul 2015, 21:46
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I gather things are still progressing well...... apparently the RCS this week had Caernafon, Inverness and Humberside all declared as No NVG and No Paramedic!

Brave new world...........
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 10:46
  #2135 (permalink)  
 
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If things dont stay the same they will change and vice versa

..........apparently things have changed for the better this week wrt RCS status of the MCA aircraft. All three sites now declaring a PM and only Inverness without NVG.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 13:16
  #2136 (permalink)  
 
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Once we've seen one aircraft serviceable in a fleet of twelve, a true equivalent service will have been achieved. Not likely to happen fortunately.


Let's not forget that the NVG status has not always been available or thoroughly expressed on RCS. More progress.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 13:37
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Let's not forget that the NVG status has not always been available or thoroughly expressed on RCS. More progress.
it never needed to be, it was a given.

As for serviceability - we'll have to wait 20 years or so to see how the modern helicopters stand up to the test of time
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 14:26
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I know that you have a sound knowledge of the history of UK helo SAR and the development of role eqpt across the years Crab so I am disappointed not to see that reflected in your recent post. The progress made by each of the four providers has been different in the absence of a single guiding authority or requirement.

As for waiting 20 yrs, I think we can easily see where this is going when a major takes about a week instead of three months.

Last edited by jimf671; 30th Jul 2015 at 16:37.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 16:47
  #2139 (permalink)  
 
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Jim - not sure how development of role equipment over the years is even slightly pertinent to not having NVG capability or enough paramedics in one of the busiest times of the year.

I know it will get sorted - because it has to - but it is disgraceful that the new service is being stood up without being as capable as the old one - all very forseeable.

As for the aircraft - the 139 was supposed to be the all singing and dancing SAR aircraft with low down-time - right up to the point it was introduced to the maritime environment and flying hours at SARTU and promptly started breaking and corroding.

When the number of S92 hours flown in UK SAR is up to the same as the Sea King flew on an 'almost' constant basis, you can start crowing about the new aircraft.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 21:40
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Jim - not sure how development of role equipment over the years is even slightly pertinent to not having NVG capability or enough paramedics in one of the busiest times of the year.
For instance, flying on NVG was introduced in half the UK SAR fleet in 1993 and will be introduced for the entire UK SAR fleet by July 2017 (with the base that probably needs it most being last). British efficiency shining through again.

On paramedics, it has been discussed at some length previously on this site whether this is the one of the essentials of SAR, since SAR is not Big HEMS. As with NVG, the previous developments in this area have not been either uniform or subject to fleet-wide planning.

I suggest that once a complete fleet is rolled out there will be a sufficient pool of trained aircrew available that such events will be very rare indeed during most of this contract. That situation does not yet exist.


Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I know it will get sorted - because it has to - but it is disgraceful that the new service is being stood up without being as capable as the old one - all very forseeable.
Disgraceful?

Unfortunate.


Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
As for the aircraft - the 139 was supposed to be the all singing and dancing SAR aircraft with low down-time - right up to the point it was introduced to the maritime environment and flying hours at SARTU and promptly started breaking and corroding.
I hear you. Not AW's finest hour and there are repeat performances of a few of the problems currently in progress. However, AW189 arrives as we reach one million AW139 hours and examples breaking the ten thousand mark with the 700 examples flying around the world, including a significant SAR population, showing what an unproven aircraft it is.


Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
When the number of S92 hours flown in UK SAR is up to the same as the Sea King flew on an 'almost' constant basis, you can start crowing about the new aircraft.
I don't like everything about the S-92 but it is a sound aircraft that has been in successful SAR service in the UK since 2007. There are no indications that anyone blinked when the customer asked for 98% availability on this contract. As far as I am aware all the main players intended to operate with one or two spare aircraft of each type until the DfT changed their spec to two aircraft per base in late 2012.
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