Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 27th Dec 2015, 17:17
  #2521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,636
Thanks for that dunwinching My wife still regales people with that tale.

I took the easier option and just gave up smoking for real
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2015, 19:33
  #2522 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In the Radio Bay
Posts: 43
Glad to hear it. If you want sight of a truly impressive - possibly Intergalactic in scale - cock up / waste of money, try UK MFTS RW which should prevent any trained aircrew being available for SAR or indeed anything else. Luckily it's only twice as expensive as the present system.
DunWinching is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 08:33
  #2523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,636
Pozidrive - found it, but is that all the SAR action? - my wife looked at all the horrendous TV footage and said 'Where are all the helicopters?'

Dunwinching - yes I keep hearing stories about how Shawbury is being carved up again - not for the better it would seem!
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 10:02
  #2524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Not quite where I'd like to be
Age: 61
Posts: 101
DunWinching:
should prevent any trained aircrew being available for SAR
Regurgitating the same old rubbish. MFTS is planning to train what the customer asks for, so if there is no requirement for SAR aircrew then they won't be trained. However, the RN require winching skills as a secondary role for their aircrew so appropriate training will be provided - for them, at least.

It's only twice as expensive as the present system
I'd be happy to debate that, but the trouble is that we'd have to know how much the present system costs and we don't, do we? That's part of the problem that led to MFTS - the MOD simply has no idea how much it costs to train a RW student. Still, never let a good rumour get in the way of facts...
sargs is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 11:12
  #2525 (permalink)  
gsa
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wensleydale.
Posts: 89
my wife looked at all the horrendous TV footage and said 'Where are all the helicopters?'
Without stirring it I thought the same thing, I remember the pictures of the Sea Kings queueing up at Boscastle and Cockermouth a few years ago where a disabled friend of mine got picked out of his top window by Sea King.

So could the new service put a load of airframes in the same place at the same time if needed? or is the 92 just overly big to be in the hover over towns? Saying that a 92 trundled up Wensleydale low last night after dark last night.
gsa is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 11:42
  #2526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
The S92 would have to hover very, very high over an urban area to avoid its downwash doing more harm than good. With the delicacy of the situation eg little old ladies in RIBs, poor old Joe Public really doesn't need his day spoiled further by a localised hurricane adding to his woes. It would have to be situation critical to warrant an S92.
The SAR RC is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 11:42
  #2527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Midlands
Posts: 127
"Where are all the helicopters?..."


Looking at the press reports there was no shortage of teams with boats, and apparently nobody who couldn't be reached from the existing roads. So why use expensive helicopters if its all under control at ground level?


At Boscastle, for example, there was no road access, people were trapped on the upper floors of buildings that were collapsing - a very different situation.
Pozidrive is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 15:43
  #2528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,636
At Boscastle, for example, there was no road access, people were trapped on the upper floors of buildings that were collapsing - a very different situation.
No, they were on the roof of a building that wasn't collapsing and would have been quite safe inside - the Fire and Rescue team led them to the roof. The only road issue was the bridge right in the middle of the village. To quote Max Boyce 'I know cos I was there'

Look at the Gloucester floods to see how many were rescued in situations that boats were wholly unsuitable for - fast flowing water inland is very dangerous.

However, it may be that in recent years, the emergency services have changed the way they approach flooding and personnel recovery, clearly they try to get people out earlier than they did.

A cynic might argue that if they are not tasked by the MCA (maintaining priority for the coastal areas) then it is no wonder we haven't seen any CG helos in the flooded areas.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 16:43
  #2529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 196
A cynic might argue that if they are not tasked by the MCA (maintaining priority for the coastal areas) then it is no wonder we haven't seen any CG helos in the flooded areas.
Total nonsense.

Tasking SAR helicopters, regardless of their livery, remains the responsibility of the RAF ARCC (for now) and any genuine requests for assistance will no doubt be treated in the same way they always have been. Prestwick, Caernarfon and Humberside have all been involved inland in recent flooding incidents in both Cumbria and Yorkshire.

It's more likely the case that the press don't get too excited unless there is something dramatic and large scale a la Boscastle.

Crab, the same old tune is getting a bit repetitive now. Even to those on your side of the fence.
llamaman is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 17:12
  #2530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,636
It's more likely the case that the press don't get too excited unless there is something dramatic and large scale a la Boscastle.
The present flooding is far, far worse and on a much larger scale than Boscastle and Gloucester and Cockermouth - yet only one small press report of a helicopter that might have winched someone from their house....

We had a process for constantly rebriefing Gold and Silver commanders about the capabilities of SAR helicopters and their availability but Regional Liaison officers are a thing of the past, as are the SARLOs that we would send out to directly interface with Gold command.

Do the MCA have such a structure in place now??????? And I mean using people who actually understand helicopters.

If no-one knows there are helos available then no-one will ask for them.

Bristow have done liaison work with the MRTs and RNLI units near their bases but how far inland has that work progressed?

Sorry if you are bored with the tune but until the new service is as capable as the old then you might well have to keep listening to it.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 17:32
  #2531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 196
Crab,

Regional Liaison Officers are still alive and well. I refer you to my comment re. Prestwick, Caernarfon and Humberside. The fact that there is little press footage doesn't mean some good work hasn't been happening! The fact that quite a bit has been going on in the dark has probably contributed to the lack of footage.

Obviously the flooding is widespread but the emergency services have had plenty of experience in the last few years and you could argue that they have a greater understanding of what a helicopter can (and can't) offer. You don't always need a hammer to crack a nut.

I guarantee that if a large scale helicopter evacuation had been necessary in the past few days and it had occurred in daylight that there would be plenty of footage of SAR helicopters.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion about the standard of the new service but please don't demean yourself by suggesting that SAR helicopters have not responded to flooding incidents because the MCA wants to prioritise coastal coverage. That is total b*llocks but could well be taken as truth by those less informed/press trolls.
llamaman is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 18:12
  #2532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: North East
Posts: 31
Media

Perhaps MCA need to invest in a media ops team - or perhaps they should just carry on the good work and spend our money wisely and not bother the busy reporters.

Here is a link that may delight - some. 🦀

Changing of the Guard | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
Bucaneer Bill is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 18:41
  #2533 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,636
Llamaman - so where are the press releases, the statements of rescues and assistance given? Surely the MCA are not shy about their new service?

Is what used to be called military assistance to the civil community part of the new SAR service?

Good to see the Chinook helping out taking equipment in to the flood defences in York. Could a S-92 not have done that job?
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 18:46
  #2534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In the Radio Bay
Posts: 43
Do the MCA cabs have a SACRU? The Chinook was 80 ft stropping
DunWinching is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 19:21
  #2535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where-ever nav's chooses....
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The present flooding is far, far worse and on a much larger scale than Boscastle and Gloucester and Cockermouth - yet only one small press report of a helicopter that might have winched someone from their house....

We had a process for constantly rebriefing Gold and Silver commanders about the capabilities of SAR helicopters and their availability but Regional Liaison officers are a thing of the past, as are the SARLOs that we would send out to directly interface with Gold command.

Do the MCA have such a structure in place now??????? And I mean using people who actually understand helicopters.

If no-one knows there are helos available then no-one will ask for them.

Bristow have done liaison work with the MRTs and RNLI units near their bases but how far inland has that work progressed?

Sorry if you are bored with the tune but until the new service is as capable as the old then you might well have to keep listening to it.

Perhaps they heard that if they wanted helicopters, they'd have to deal with you, and thought better of it?
alfred_the_great is online now  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 19:58
  #2536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
No, MCA S92s do not have a cargo hook.
The SAR RC is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 21:38
  #2537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,214
There was a statement about having an underslung load capability in a MCA-Bristow FAQ in 2014.

"Q. Will the new aircraft have an underslung capability?
A. Yes. All of our aircraft are capable of carrying underslung loads but will not carry the necessary hook at all times. This capability would be used on an ad hoc basis and after consultation with the MCA and CAA."

While that may look llike a good idea, what also looks like a good idea is that SAR guys stick to SAR and SH guys who are doing underslung for their day job do that when needed.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 22:14
  #2538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In the Radio Bay
Posts: 43
Day job etc granted, but SAR crews are generally rather good at USL serials as accurate hover / response to patter etc tend to be useful most trips. But if the hook is not normally fitted, continuity of practice must be difficult.
DunWinching is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 22:28
  #2539 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moo moo land
Posts: 281
be to differ.. UK sar s92s do have cargo hooks.... at least 1 at each base...
lowfat is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2015, 22:46
  #2540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,636
In that case, no different to what we had in milsar since the SACRUs were removed for weight saving and only fitted when required - not sure if there is the same USL currency tick required for Bristow crews as there was for milsar.

Still, Boscastle - SAR helos of every colour, Gloucester - yellow helos (at least 2) Cockermouth - yellow helos, Yorkshire 2015..............................

alfred the great - as many have said here, I don't do that job any more so that really shouldn't be an issue should it? I am one person with an opinion but an awful lot of people seem rather afraid of that.................
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.