Helicopter - v - crane LONDON
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helicopter - v - crane LONDON
"Diagrams of the various Cranes and designs in use as well as their operations"
Oh for goodness sakes. Talk about ott!
I suppose if the crew that hit the tree knew more about the particular species they may have been able to avoid it!
Oh for goodness sakes. Talk about ott!
I suppose if the crew that hit the tree knew more about the particular species they may have been able to avoid it!
Last edited by Old Age Pilot; 29th Jan 2013 at 17:45.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Coast and Suffolk
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Exo.
as the rest of the routing (back from Elstree) is via the City CTR (which I think was closed at that time, and therefore called the London CTR as well, confusingly).
The City CTR (and CTA) are H24 and are always called "the City Control Zone (and the City Control Area)".
It used to be the case (prior to 9/11) that when London City were closed, the City CTR (no CTA existed back then) reverted to Class G but it was never called the London CTR. You maybe confused because outside the hours of Thames Radar and Heathrow Radar, the Controlling Authority becomes Heathrow Director.
Last edited by Andy Mayes; 29th Jan 2013 at 18:21. Reason: Forgot the word 'Control'
From a non Heli pilot angle
Pace....you have reached the point where perhaps Rumour and News might be the better place for you to discuss this accident.
You have no basis from which to consider helicopter flight on the London Heli-Lanes as you have never done it....you are not qualified to do it....and bluntly....you just don't know what you are talking about when you try to inject yourself into such a discussion.
This is a hard discussion to follow even when you know what it is all about....as evidenced by the back and forth by qualified professional helicopter pilots who actually fly in this environment.
I am not suggesting you are not a professional aviator....but your background and current employment does not give you a basis to comment upon much of what is being discussed.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
They say a picture paints a thousand words.
Link to Special Bulletin
Link to LONDON HELIPORT INBOUND/OUTBOUND FLIGHT PROCEDURES Chart
Link to AIP Information for London Heliport - EGLW
Link to Special Bulletin
Link to LONDON HELIPORT INBOUND/OUTBOUND FLIGHT PROCEDURES Chart
Link to AIP Information for London Heliport - EGLW
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: 15 DME
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace's post's are usually well received and balanced.
I don't understand his posts here and agree with what SASless has said.
I have only known 1 previous carp post from Pace and that was a forwarded message.
Pace - shudup
I don't understand his posts here and agree with what SASless has said.
I have only known 1 previous carp post from Pace and that was a forwarded message.
Pace - shudup
Last edited by Richard Westnot; 29th Jan 2013 at 22:34.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: europe
Age: 67
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a non heli driver I had intended to keep out of this, but I really do think that Pace has hit the nail on the head.
This really is something that should be included in the flight craning syllabus!
This really is something that should be included in the flight craning syllabus!
As a non-Heli Driver....please do stay out this please. You want to contribute...please go to Rumour and News....you'll find a warmer welcome there.
Now Chaps and Chapettes.....where were we?
Now Chaps and Chapettes.....where were we?
Barring any further solid information, I'd say this is exhausted SASless. SiloeSid's graphic tells the story clearly - it's just devoid of the actual weather over the Thames that morning.
G-CRST's failure to hold between Westminster & VB - and not going east as far as London Bridge as offered - would seem to indicate that he was having immense vis problems. (I'm not certain what the controller was seeing on the screen at 0758 when the tx was "you can make it quite a wide hold etc." G-CRST was already west of VB and into Class A. Did the controller see this? The radio message doesn't really match the circs.)
We also need to know who G-CRST monitored or spoke to on the northern Elstree-bound route. If you're going to overhead Batt at 0740, wouldn't you put in a call as a safety? It's not in the AAIB log.
And Elstree - doesn't open until 0900. So no tower, no weather - except for client telling him that his enroute to Elstree was bad. Could have diverted to Denham (0800 open) - but maybe couldn't see a route clear?
Let the AAIB finish their work.
G-CRST's failure to hold between Westminster & VB - and not going east as far as London Bridge as offered - would seem to indicate that he was having immense vis problems. (I'm not certain what the controller was seeing on the screen at 0758 when the tx was "you can make it quite a wide hold etc." G-CRST was already west of VB and into Class A. Did the controller see this? The radio message doesn't really match the circs.)
We also need to know who G-CRST monitored or spoke to on the northern Elstree-bound route. If you're going to overhead Batt at 0740, wouldn't you put in a call as a safety? It's not in the AAIB log.
And Elstree - doesn't open until 0900. So no tower, no weather - except for client telling him that his enroute to Elstree was bad. Could have diverted to Denham (0800 open) - but maybe couldn't see a route clear?
Let the AAIB finish their work.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SiloeSid's graphic tells the story clearly - it's just devoid of the actual weather over the Thames that morning.
Apart from that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?
We also need to know who G-CRST monitored or spoke to on the northern Elstree-bound route. If you're going to overhead Batt at 0740, wouldn't you put in a call as a safety? It's not in the AAIB log.
Seems like you and some others here are trying to find as many ways you can to try to crucify the already dead guy?
All part of the so-called 'learning' ethos of Pprune of course. Like hell.
Let the AAIB finish their work.
Some of you guys have given them all the answers.
Last edited by Bronx; 30th Jan 2013 at 19:56.
JB(I'm not certain what the controller was seeing on the screen at 0758 when the tx was "you can make it quite a wide hold etc.")
'Wide' in this context as I interpret it may mean that if there were a delay in co-ordinating the handover or subsequent LW approach the pilot would have a more relaxed elongated holding pattern. I'm thinking if referring to an east west 'swathe' (authorised to LB 0758z) rather than the much shorter VB-WB originally passed. This would reduce workload/co-ordination/transmissions if the aircraft needed a changed hold pattern due wx, whilst co-ordination was taking place between the two units. The controller may also have been working/co-ordinating other aircraft and anticipating a tx sequence in advance, hence they make their life a bit easier giving the a/c more flexibility within a defined space, reducing workload and transmissions.
Alternatively as the a/c was a twin it could refer to a wider than normal north-south swathe of the VB-LB hold authorised for operational flexibility.
There may be clarification in the final report of this aspect.
deefer dog
I thought it was funny...... and I is a hili pielet.......
This really is something that should be included in the flight craning syllabus!
I thought it was funny...... and I is a hili pielet.......
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Age: 53
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry SAS, I think we are more on the same page than I thought.
I've highlighted 3 sections above Pace.
1. But you continue to. This is not a high-level IFR environment and the assumptions you are making are flawed.
2. As I (and others) have stated before, one does not need to be blinded or in cloud to fail to see, or even to strike, man-made structures of this type.
3. Another assumption. Looking at the various pictures posted here, and reading the various 'eyewitness' accounts by ppruners, I fail to see proof of a defined ceiling below the height of the crane. This forum does not have the information to establish the in-flight visibility. Again, the AAIB should have the data to make a real decision about that.
4. That is the mother of all assumptions right there. I can't think of anyone I have ever flown with that would deliberately fly through a cloud at that level. Failed to see an obstruction, yes. In cloud, no.
================
As for ATC giving him leeway (the other posts): on those occassions when I have been in the lone (or close to lone) a/c in the airspace due to an issue like weather or some other hazard, the controllers have always tried to let us do our work, then wait until it was finished to ask why we did it that way. Unless, of course, they saw a conflict.
================
edited to add reply to Pace, who cannot post here:
In my experience operating to rigs and elevated platforms/buildings, the fact that a structure is obscured from ground level isn't a guarantee that from a higher vantage, it is in a cloud. Mist and haze aren't as rigidly edged as that.
Because of this, I don't feel it is correct to make an absolute judgement so quickly.
We will have to disagree I think, but thanks for taking the effort to talk to me.
Take care and fly safe.
SASLess
Starting again with you
I have a lot of multi engine piston time over many places but a lot in Northern, Southern Ireland and Scotland.
Some was IFR some was IFR OCAS, Some was into airports with approaches some not.
Now I fly totally jets IFR so a very regulated environment and I have to say the safest environment.
I have also flown some ferry work but never singles as I am not that brave
As to Helicopters sadly not and in this case not a situation a fixed wing pilot cannot contribute too.
But touch wood I am still here while several of my friends are not so I have a good guardian Angel or have done something right in the past or been plain lucky.
I discussed flying OCAS or even SVFR and what some pilots do to get the job done.
For that I am accused of being some sort of cowboy or minima buster by 757 driver and yourself.
Had PB flown to the SVFR limits and been visual at all times this accident would not have occurred.
Witnesses stated he popped out of the clouds and veered away from the building.
I acknowledge witnesses can get things wrong and popping out of the clouds could be something very different.
Putting that aside we do know the arm off the crane was hidden in cloud.
He did not see it and placed the Helicopter partially into that cloud enough to collide with the Crane Arm.
So for that fact alone he entered cloud on a SVFR clearance.
SVFR are limits that you can legally operate to in that airspace.
Sadly SVFR limits are defined weather is not so it is perfectly feasible to find yourself below those limits and to have to extricate yourself by either turning back! (which does not always work) Or to declare a problem, ask for a climb and as you put it an IFR clearance.
PB was a very respected experienced pilot! The reason I talk about cloud punching etc is not to condone it but to realize that it does go on and probably did so in this case with tragic consequences.
It is all to easy to say you shouldnt do this or that or regulation xyz says bla bla bla the fact is that pilots do do this or that some intentionally some not and in this case with awful and sad consequences.
Pace
Starting again with you
I have a lot of multi engine piston time over many places but a lot in Northern, Southern Ireland and Scotland.Some was IFR some was IFR OCAS, Some was into airports with approaches some not.
Now I fly totally jets IFR so a very regulated environment and I have to say the safest environment.
I have also flown some ferry work but never singles as I am not that brave
As to Helicopters sadly not and in this case not a situation a fixed wing pilot cannot contribute too.
But touch wood I am still here while several of my friends are not so I have a good guardian Angel or have done something right in the past or been plain lucky.
I discussed flying OCAS or even SVFR and what some pilots do to get the job done.
For that I am accused of being some sort of cowboy or minima buster by 757 driver and yourself.
Had PB flown to the SVFR limits and been visual at all times this accident would not have occurred.
Witnesses stated he popped out of the clouds and veered away from the building.
I acknowledge witnesses can get things wrong and popping out of the clouds could be something very different.
Putting that aside we do know the arm off the crane was hidden in cloud.
He did not see it and placed the Helicopter partially into that cloud enough to collide with the Crane Arm.
So for that fact alone he entered cloud on a SVFR clearance.
SVFR are limits that you can legally operate to in that airspace.
Sadly SVFR limits are defined weather is not so it is perfectly feasible to find yourself below those limits and to have to extricate yourself by either turning back! (which does not always work) Or to declare a problem, ask for a climb and as you put it an IFR clearance.
PB was a very respected experienced pilot! The reason I talk about cloud punching etc is not to condone it but to realize that it does go on and probably did so in this case with tragic consequences.
It is all to easy to say you shouldnt do this or that or regulation xyz says bla bla bla the fact is that pilots do do this or that some intentionally some not and in this case with awful and sad consequences.
Pace
1. But you continue to. This is not a high-level IFR environment and the assumptions you are making are flawed.
2. As I (and others) have stated before, one does not need to be blinded or in cloud to fail to see, or even to strike, man-made structures of this type.
3. Another assumption. Looking at the various pictures posted here, and reading the various 'eyewitness' accounts by ppruners, I fail to see proof of a defined ceiling below the height of the crane. This forum does not have the information to establish the in-flight visibility. Again, the AAIB should have the data to make a real decision about that.
4. That is the mother of all assumptions right there. I can't think of anyone I have ever flown with that would deliberately fly through a cloud at that level. Failed to see an obstruction, yes. In cloud, no.
================
As for ATC giving him leeway (the other posts): on those occassions when I have been in the lone (or close to lone) a/c in the airspace due to an issue like weather or some other hazard, the controllers have always tried to let us do our work, then wait until it was finished to ask why we did it that way. Unless, of course, they saw a conflict.
================
edited to add reply to Pace, who cannot post here:
From AAIB report:
Witness and CCTV evidence collected to date indicate
that the top of the crane and the top of the building to
which it was attached were obscured by cloud at the time
of impact
Witness and CCTV evidence collected to date indicate
that the top of the crane and the top of the building to
which it was attached were obscured by cloud at the time
of impact
Because of this, I don't feel it is correct to make an absolute judgement so quickly.
We will have to disagree I think, but thanks for taking the effort to talk to me.
Take care and fly safe.
Last edited by pilot and apprentice; 31st Jan 2013 at 00:24.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
SASless;
A very good question.
Just to recap, JB called visual with Vauxhall abeam 'the eye', and then adjusted course to the right towards Chelsea, but they look totally different, don't they!
Vauxhall
Chelsea
As you can see, quite different, HOWEVER looking at the bigger picture...
...you will notice that just to the East of Chelsea bridge is the rail bridge.
What difference does that make, you may be thinking..
Thanks to google street view;
Vauxhall Bridge
Chelsea Rail Bridge
No Bronx, we aren't trying to crucify anyone, just trying to understand why these things like this happen!
How easy is it to identify the various bridges....are they unique enough in design, location to buildings, or in any other way, that there is no confusing them?
Just to recap, JB called visual with Vauxhall abeam 'the eye', and then adjusted course to the right towards Chelsea, but they look totally different, don't they!
Vauxhall
Chelsea
As you can see, quite different, HOWEVER looking at the bigger picture...
...you will notice that just to the East of Chelsea bridge is the rail bridge.
What difference does that make, you may be thinking..
Thanks to google street view;
Vauxhall Bridge
Chelsea Rail Bridge
No Bronx, we aren't trying to crucify anyone, just trying to understand why these things like this happen!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Helinut;
...if those known surroundings can be seen!
A regular pilot will also use the known surroundings of bridges to help to ID them.