North Sea heli ditching: Oct 2012
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PITTS - The point is many of us here do have a VESTED INTEREST. To some of us it is our livelihoods, to others it is their method of transport to and from work. To the rest of you it amounts to rubbernecking and speculation. There is none so dangerous as he who has nothing to lose.
I do not mind at all your speculation about the nature of the failure and the technical content you seem desperate to impress us all with. What p***ses me off is your childish suggestion that one the great helicopter manufacturers in the world (and there are a few) knows less about the technology than you, or worse, is trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
BRASSED-OFF - Keep the faith buddy. Times are about to change...again.
DB
I do not mind at all your speculation about the nature of the failure and the technical content you seem desperate to impress us all with. What p***ses me off is your childish suggestion that one the great helicopter manufacturers in the world (and there are a few) knows less about the technology than you, or worse, is trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
BRASSED-OFF - Keep the faith buddy. Times are about to change...again.
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 4th Dec 2012 at 07:21.
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Pitts, you keep delving into the reports. One of the great things about being here in the UK is that you can bring what you may think are injustices to light without fear of prejudice. You may or may not be right but you may just bring something to the surface that is worthy of consideration. We still don't have a definitive explanation to G-REDL (HUMS arguments aside) and after G-REDW it was largely assumed to be a one company issue until one of the largest helicopter operators in the world has the same issue. It does appear that in the helicopter world, we have to have confirmation of an accident by having another before things change.
We all have something to lose here, if the 225 doesn't return to service promptly, some here have more to lose than others. We will just end up with a fleet of S92s and a few shagged out L2s and the next thing that happens to either brings us back to square one.
I think most people can make their own judgement as to the efficacy of your posts, that includes passengers and crews - we don't need to be told how your missives should be read.
By the way, I have met a few PPL holders who are complete idiots; I have also met a considerable amount of ATPL holders who fall into the same category - that's life. A lot of ATPL holders were PPLs! There are very few ATPL holders that I would let run my business though...
We all have something to lose here, if the 225 doesn't return to service promptly, some here have more to lose than others. We will just end up with a fleet of S92s and a few shagged out L2s and the next thing that happens to either brings us back to square one.
I think most people can make their own judgement as to the efficacy of your posts, that includes passengers and crews - we don't need to be told how your missives should be read.
By the way, I have met a few PPL holders who are complete idiots; I have also met a considerable amount of ATPL holders who fall into the same category - that's life. A lot of ATPL holders were PPLs! There are very few ATPL holders that I would let run my business though...
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The thing is you have no idea who I am, what I do, what I have done.
As you wish biggles
Tell you what take it I have zero hours, didn't go to a decent uni, no professional career, no funds and no experience in anything.
Sorry the point about being a PPL holder is?
However there is something to be said when a non-professional comes on here and starts shouting his mouth off in a non-professional way and helps create material for the many journos that scour this site for juicy gossip. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is in no way helping any of us in our industry. I'm sure if we were to come into your banker's forum (just a guess that you are a banker, maybe my old salt perception) and start mouthing off, ringing the dinner bell for the press and damaging your industry, you'd have something to say with regards to our "professional" connection to the industry. It's not the PPL that we sneer at. It's the non-professional attitude of the holder that is the problem. Have some humility and get over it.
It seems to me the people getting stressed are in a camp labeled "vested interest"
Congratulations. You stumbled over the exact point of this thread - and fell right on the very concern to most of us on pprune.
Pittsextra and others attracting unnecessary attention
It all comes down to attracting unwanted attention. Constructive discussion is one thing, but being a motor mouth is damaging to our industry - think Jim Ferguson.
Pittsextra; you are officially ignored!
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Cyclic.
Nobody cares what licence anybody holds. That has nothing to do with my view of PITTs and his postings.
But just to balance the argument somewhat, I suspect your distrust of ATPL(H) holders may be borne out of their inherent desire to put SAFETY FIRST - always!!! And this may not suit they way you run your business.
But if you are actually involved in real aviation you may like to take a few moments to ponder the impression you have tried to paint to all who read this forum of your personal view of professional pilots. Your statement is digraceful!!
Please let me know what Company you run so I can note never to apply!!
DB
Nobody cares what licence anybody holds. That has nothing to do with my view of PITTs and his postings.
But just to balance the argument somewhat, I suspect your distrust of ATPL(H) holders may be borne out of their inherent desire to put SAFETY FIRST - always!!! And this may not suit they way you run your business.
But if you are actually involved in real aviation you may like to take a few moments to ponder the impression you have tried to paint to all who read this forum of your personal view of professional pilots. Your statement is digraceful!!
Please let me know what Company you run so I can note never to apply!!
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 4th Dec 2012 at 09:37.
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Originally Posted by Old Age Pilot
There is no point. That's just your green perception of what BB was asking.
However there is something to be said when a non-professional comes on here and starts shouting his mouth off in a non-professional way and helps create material for the many journos that scour this site for juicy gossip. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is in no way helping any of us in our industry. I'm sure if we were to come into your banker's forum (just a guess that you are a banker, maybe my old salt perception) and start mouthing off, ringing the dinner bell for the press and damaging your industry, you'd have something to say with regards to our "professional" connection to the industry. It's not the PPL that we sneer at. It's the non-professional attitude of the holder that is the problem. Have some humility and get over it.
However there is something to be said when a non-professional comes on here and starts shouting his mouth off in a non-professional way and helps create material for the many journos that scour this site for juicy gossip. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is in no way helping any of us in our industry. I'm sure if we were to come into your banker's forum (just a guess that you are a banker, maybe my old salt perception) and start mouthing off, ringing the dinner bell for the press and damaging your industry, you'd have something to say with regards to our "professional" connection to the industry. It's not the PPL that we sneer at. It's the non-professional attitude of the holder that is the problem. Have some humility and get over it.
ANYWAY, back on topic, so far we have a few interim reports that DO seem to raise more questions than answers. There is an obvious reliance on HUMS which in my mind is simply a tool that we must use, and the chemists are looking at the materials used. What more can we say, riff-raff has enlightened us on techniques used, till we get more information from the authorities.
My understanding of a learned limit on HUMS is that the machine monitors and measures the vibration. For a "good" aircraft the data will show a trace that will be different to a "bad" aircraft, and over time as more data is gathered and a comparison across the fleet is made the system "learns" what is a good trace and what is bad. Simplistic perhaps but I THINK that is all the learned limits are, nothing more sinister.
Si
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BB - My understanding is the "Learned" limit is applicable only to the individual MGB/AC configuration. As this is established, threshold limits are then correspondingly applied in consultation with the manufacturer.
Maybe a HUMs engineer can confirm this or Helicomparitor might know!!
DB
Maybe a HUMs engineer can confirm this or Helicomparitor might know!!
DB
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DB I would imagine the "learning" would be useful across a fleet, for example the EC225 data could be compared across those, the L2's alike and then the L alike. Whether there would be the ability to compare data from a 225 to that of the L2 I don't know, but surely as more hours are flown on each type there will be more data and more comparison possible within each fleet?
I have just re-read your post and I THINK we are both saying the same thing :P
Si
I have just re-read your post and I THINK we are both saying the same thing :P
Si
Last edited by bigglesbutler; 4th Dec 2012 at 10:17.
Cyclic
Some oil companies are already going S-92 (if they can get one) instead of 225 as soon as possible, business is too badly affected to wait around until February...June....or who knows when in 2013. Contractually, due to training and start up costs and amortization thereof, the change to S-92 will be long term.
Some helicopter companies are looking for used L2s (unaffected ones) but they are very rare. Some operators are asking EC whether or not they can produce new 332L1s with the carburized shaft...not sure what the answer is going to be.
We all have something to lose here, if the 225 doesn't return to service promptly, some here have more to lose than others. We will just end up with a fleet of S92s and a few shagged out L2s and the next thing that happens to either brings us back to square one.
Some helicopter companies are looking for used L2s (unaffected ones) but they are very rare. Some operators are asking EC whether or not they can produce new 332L1s with the carburized shaft...not sure what the answer is going to be.
HC....still think this is a minor hiccup?
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SAS - if I gave you 10 minutes in an EC225 and you were able to see the incredible technology employed to enhance safety for both the PAX and the crew you would view this as we do - a stone cold tragedy!!
The only people who would consider a S92/AS332L1 instead of the EC225 are those that have yet to fly the EC225. Theres no point trying to contend this unless you have actually operated all three types/variants.
DB
The only people who would consider a S92/AS332L1 instead of the EC225 are those that have yet to fly the EC225. Theres no point trying to contend this unless you have actually operated all three types/variants.
DB
On the subject of learned limits, as I understand it (and could be wrong) the general idea is that because there is a (perhaps surprisingly) large variation in the vibration signature of the same element between different gearboxes, fault detection can be optimised by setting a limit specific to each gearbox. One could for example imagine looking at the LH side of the plots of the MOD45 and MOD70 shown in the AAIB report and working out the normal vibration level for that particular gearbox, then setting a limit which is some level and/or number of standard deviations above the normal limit. Thus the limit can be pretty close to the normal value without risking exceeding it unless there is a fault.
However this brings 2 problems, one is that the system has to learn the normal behaviour, typically I think over 25 hours. Then care has to be taken not to set too high a limit as a result of a defect in a gearbox element that was present from new. Thus there are also generic limts set, to ensure that the learned limit is not too high, and to give protection during the 25hrs learning process.
SAS, I would prefer it if you did not attribute comments to me that I never made. I realise that, despite living in UK for some time, you are American through and through and think that only American helicopters are any good. That national loyalty is commendable in some ways, but bearing in mind the degree of canineness of many products of USA such as your cars, those not subject to the national bias find it rather sad.
However this brings 2 problems, one is that the system has to learn the normal behaviour, typically I think over 25 hours. Then care has to be taken not to set too high a limit as a result of a defect in a gearbox element that was present from new. Thus there are also generic limts set, to ensure that the learned limit is not too high, and to give protection during the 25hrs learning process.
SAS, I would prefer it if you did not attribute comments to me that I never made. I realise that, despite living in UK for some time, you are American through and through and think that only American helicopters are any good. That national loyalty is commendable in some ways, but bearing in mind the degree of canineness of many products of USA such as your cars, those not subject to the national bias find it rather sad.
"canineness", that's a new one. For a moment I read it as canniness, but that wouldn't have been applicable at all.
Last edited by Colibri49; 4th Dec 2012 at 17:28. Reason: senile dementia
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HC thanks for explaining that to us. It makes more sense to me now.
Speaking of american cars, I once rented a Cadillac Escalade. Even the pedals had electric motors on them to make them move closer to my feet. However, the first freeway exit I tried to negotiate at a mere 40 MPH damn near killed me as it had more body roll than Glaswegian pie-eater and the kind of suspension that you would normally find on a waterbed.
I am not sure that the english language has a word to describe the curious mix of luxury and convienience married to utter incompetence at its its implied prime function....to be a car!!
DB
Speaking of american cars, I once rented a Cadillac Escalade. Even the pedals had electric motors on them to make them move closer to my feet. However, the first freeway exit I tried to negotiate at a mere 40 MPH damn near killed me as it had more body roll than Glaswegian pie-eater and the kind of suspension that you would normally find on a waterbed.
I am not sure that the english language has a word to describe the curious mix of luxury and convienience married to utter incompetence at its its implied prime function....to be a car!!
DB
"if I gave you 10 minutes in an EC225 and you were able to see the incredible technology employed to enhance safety for both the PAX and the crew you would view this as we do - a stone cold tragedy!!"
Never was a truer phrase written. Yes, luck has played a considerable part in all 3 of the EC225 ditchings, in that nobody got seriously hurt. Bad luck and misunderstanding resulted in fatalities off Newfoundland in the S92 crash.
There will never come a time when helicopters in offshore operations are as safe as taking a city bus to work, but Eurocopter has done their utmost to raise the bar in the safety game and the EC225 package is about as sophisticated in terms of safety as things are ever likely to be in offshore helicopter operations.
This problem with the main rotor shaft metallurgy is an unmitigated tragedy for not only Eurocopter, but also for an industry which is forced back on to older and less efficient technology. Time will show that these older types are no less prone to scary and often unpredictable events.
The S92 is due for a mauw upgrade, but I'm not sure that I would feel comfortable as a pilot or passenger in an airframe which is already unnecessarily heavy for the job and almost guaranteed to resume suffering cracks when pushed to work even harder.
I agree that the EC225 seems increasingly likely to go the way of the Chinook and many readers might be glad of that. Eventually EC will find a convincing cure, but the damage to confidence will have been too deep and too long. I concur that it will be "a stone cold tragedy!!"
Never was a truer phrase written. Yes, luck has played a considerable part in all 3 of the EC225 ditchings, in that nobody got seriously hurt. Bad luck and misunderstanding resulted in fatalities off Newfoundland in the S92 crash.
There will never come a time when helicopters in offshore operations are as safe as taking a city bus to work, but Eurocopter has done their utmost to raise the bar in the safety game and the EC225 package is about as sophisticated in terms of safety as things are ever likely to be in offshore helicopter operations.
This problem with the main rotor shaft metallurgy is an unmitigated tragedy for not only Eurocopter, but also for an industry which is forced back on to older and less efficient technology. Time will show that these older types are no less prone to scary and often unpredictable events.
The S92 is due for a mauw upgrade, but I'm not sure that I would feel comfortable as a pilot or passenger in an airframe which is already unnecessarily heavy for the job and almost guaranteed to resume suffering cracks when pushed to work even harder.
I agree that the EC225 seems increasingly likely to go the way of the Chinook and many readers might be glad of that. Eventually EC will find a convincing cure, but the damage to confidence will have been too deep and too long. I concur that it will be "a stone cold tragedy!!"
Cyclic.
<snip>
But if you are actually involved in real aviation you may like to take a few moments to ponder the impression you have tried to paint to all who read this forum of your personal view of professional pilots. Your statement is digraceful!!
Please let me know what Company you run so I can note never to apply!!
DB
<snip>
But if you are actually involved in real aviation you may like to take a few moments to ponder the impression you have tried to paint to all who read this forum of your personal view of professional pilots. Your statement is digraceful!!
Please let me know what Company you run so I can note never to apply!!
DB
DB, have you ever considered that someone could own their own company whilst also being a very experienced ATPL(H) (amongst other licences)?
A helideck on the aft deck provided for 212 landings and all the workers were flown to their platforms without incident as part of the daily shuttle service.
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DB
Luckily, although you can only see one industry through the blinkers you are wearing, I don't employ pilots as I don't have anything to fly. If I do move into aviation, I will have to forgo the pleasure of your company but I reckon you are pretty safe before Cyclic Airways hits the street.
By the way, I am very much involved in "real" aviation (whatever non-real aviation is I don't know) and I have taken a moment to ponder my words and found them not to be digraceful or even disgraceful - not all pilots are right all the time unless they are SAR pilots of course.
Luckily, although you can only see one industry through the blinkers you are wearing, I don't employ pilots as I don't have anything to fly. If I do move into aviation, I will have to forgo the pleasure of your company but I reckon you are pretty safe before Cyclic Airways hits the street.
By the way, I am very much involved in "real" aviation (whatever non-real aviation is I don't know) and I have taken a moment to ponder my words and found them not to be digraceful or even disgraceful - not all pilots are right all the time unless they are SAR pilots of course.
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BRAVO 73 - I have considered many things. Thankfully your last post is not one of them!!
Cyclic - if your last post is the true account of your situation- why on earth would you make the statements in your penultimate post??
Cyclic - if your last post is the true account of your situation- why on earth would you make the statements in your penultimate post??
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 4th Dec 2012 at 22:00.
The only people who would consider a S92/AS332L1 instead of the EC225 are those that have yet to fly the EC225.
How many commercial hours do you have in an S92
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.....ANYWAY, back on topic, so far we have a few interim reports that DO seem to raise more questions than answers. There is an obvious reliance on HUMS which in my mind is simply a tool that we must use, and the chemists are looking at the materials used.......
I'm sure EC has some very competent engineers working for them, and I'm sure they spent lots of time and effort developing this part design and manufacturing process. From what I have seen in the published reports, the basic design seems sound. And it's most likely there is a quality control issue on the manufacturing side of things.
For some perspective, here is a report describing a somewhat similar fracture issue with an EB welded gear shaft: http://products.asminternational.org...rd=409&search=
Lastly, in the spirit of disclosure, while I would not consider myself an "expert" in aircraft drivetrain engineering, I have spent the better part of two decades designing aircraft mechanical systems, including a couple of gearboxes. While I have no intimate knowledge of the EC225 MGB design and I have never worked for EC, I am quite familiar with the technical issues involved because I have had to deal with these same issues many times myself in my job. I hope no one has misinterpreted what I posted in this thread. I never intended to place blame, nor did I claim to have indisputable proof of what caused the problem. My only intent was to provide some technical perspective, based on my personal experiences, of the many possible factors that may have contributed to the problem.
Best regards to you all. I hope this problem is resolved quickly and satisfactorily for all parties involved.
riff_raff