West Mids Air Ambulance going night flying?
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Crab, what is your beef with weather limits. I don't understand why you think it is hilarious?????? What safety case are you on about?
They will give us limits, we will use them, no problem. Who cares if it is 1200'?? If it below limits, don't fly.
If needed, do what we do by day, either don't fly, go instruments or in extreme, land.
They will give us limits, we will use them, no problem. Who cares if it is 1200'?? If it below limits, don't fly.
If needed, do what we do by day, either don't fly, go instruments or in extreme, land.
Last edited by jayteeto; 29th Sep 2012 at 09:35.
I don't have a beef with weather limits though your post suggested you did.
As far as I am aware, in order to get an AOC you need to persuade the CAA you are fit and proper to hold it and that will include a safety case to evidence the integrity of your proposed operations. I would suggest that somewhere in there will be a mention of weather limits and minimum light levels that you intend to operate to.
If all pilots were capable of making the right weather decision every time we wouldn't have weather-related accidents.
Anyway, aren't you out of a job if the Liverpool ASU closes?
As far as I am aware, in order to get an AOC you need to persuade the CAA you are fit and proper to hold it and that will include a safety case to evidence the integrity of your proposed operations. I would suggest that somewhere in there will be a mention of weather limits and minimum light levels that you intend to operate to.
If all pilots were capable of making the right weather decision every time we wouldn't have weather-related accidents.
Anyway, aren't you out of a job if the Liverpool ASU closes?
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I'm sticking my neck out a bit here, but I think several of the posters on this thread are being a bit unfair in their assumptions of the skill set of some (I can't speak for all) H.E.M.S paramedics. Vie sans frontieres comment of "one genuine aircrew member" is a case in point. Whilst I am in know way alluding that H.E.M.S crewmembers/paramedics have the level of training of military navigators, many have years of left seat experience and thousands of H.E.M.S missions into un surveyed sites (albeit daytime) under their belt. Whilst I am personally still undecided on the wisdom of UK Night H.E.M.S, I think we should wait to find out more about the level of NVG initial & continuation training before completely discounting the idea.
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Bap,
I understand what you are saying and to an extent agree with you. However, I am not sure that the appropriate "risk management strategy" is to count the bodies to assess whether we have it right.
Adequate continuation training and currency is such a key factor and one that is difficult to achieve and sustain in a commercial organisation (or one that gets its funding from charitable sources).
It can be done. I believe that the arrangements for the CG-SAR contract has an agreed substantial monthly flying training budget. It seems to me that the only way this can happen is if the aviation provider convinces the person who holds the purse strings that it is essential. Perhaps the CAA could or will exert pressure too?
I understand what you are saying and to an extent agree with you. However, I am not sure that the appropriate "risk management strategy" is to count the bodies to assess whether we have it right.
Adequate continuation training and currency is such a key factor and one that is difficult to achieve and sustain in a commercial organisation (or one that gets its funding from charitable sources).
It can be done. I believe that the arrangements for the CG-SAR contract has an agreed substantial monthly flying training budget. It seems to me that the only way this can happen is if the aviation provider convinces the person who holds the purse strings that it is essential. Perhaps the CAA could or will exert pressure too?
Is it the NVG Flight Safety record that is abysmal or the Non-NVG Safety Record? You might want to check your facts before you make a blanket statement as you did.
That the US HEMES safety record is bad is not in dispute.....but doing a "Lessons Learned" exercise might be worth while to determine if the fielding of NVG's has made a real difference or not.
Also....the factors that play into the horrible safety record are worth looking at with a view towards not re-inventing the wheel British Style.....far better you avoid the pitfalls by looking elsewhere in the World to see how they have done it both good and bad.
You are starting from Square One or Twop in this process while others are well beyond that in the implementation of Night EMS and NVG civil flying.
Mistakes result in fatalities in this business. Why try to make your own when you can learn from others.....even if it is only "Let's not do it that way!". If you think holding a UK/JAR/EASA (...or whatever it is called this week) ATPL, being blessed by the CAA, and having come up with your own way of doing things makes you bullet proof.....you are in for a rude shock. This is not offshore flying over known routes and destinations with decent weather reporting and forecasting. Local conditions and the irregularity of EMS operations at night make it an all togehter different kettle of fish.
No matter how good the other Front seater is....unless he is a rated pilot, current and proficient, in actuality and not just on paper, they cannot fly the machine if needed to. Sure they can tune radios, look for traffic, obstacles, and perhaps even read a map, but having real Pilot skills can be a blessing.
JT.....
The rub is when the weather is close to the limits....not when it is good or below limits. Weather forecasting and more importantly....interpertation of the weather becomes critical.
Add the lack of visual acuity at night....none of us are Owls....and the risk of IIMC becomes all too real. Again.....look Westwards while discussing these issues as there is great food for thought over here.
That the US HEMES safety record is bad is not in dispute.....but doing a "Lessons Learned" exercise might be worth while to determine if the fielding of NVG's has made a real difference or not.
Also....the factors that play into the horrible safety record are worth looking at with a view towards not re-inventing the wheel British Style.....far better you avoid the pitfalls by looking elsewhere in the World to see how they have done it both good and bad.
You are starting from Square One or Twop in this process while others are well beyond that in the implementation of Night EMS and NVG civil flying.
Mistakes result in fatalities in this business. Why try to make your own when you can learn from others.....even if it is only "Let's not do it that way!". If you think holding a UK/JAR/EASA (...or whatever it is called this week) ATPL, being blessed by the CAA, and having come up with your own way of doing things makes you bullet proof.....you are in for a rude shock. This is not offshore flying over known routes and destinations with decent weather reporting and forecasting. Local conditions and the irregularity of EMS operations at night make it an all togehter different kettle of fish.
No matter how good the other Front seater is....unless he is a rated pilot, current and proficient, in actuality and not just on paper, they cannot fly the machine if needed to. Sure they can tune radios, look for traffic, obstacles, and perhaps even read a map, but having real Pilot skills can be a blessing.
JT.....
They will give us limits, we will use them, no problem. Who cares if it is 1200'?? If it below limits, don't fly. If needed, do what we do by day, either don't fly, go instruments or in extreme, land.
The rub is when the weather is close to the limits....not when it is good or below limits. Weather forecasting and more importantly....interpertation of the weather becomes critical.
Add the lack of visual acuity at night....none of us are Owls....and the risk of IIMC becomes all too real. Again.....look Westwards while discussing these issues as there is great food for thought over here.
Last edited by SASless; 29th Sep 2012 at 14:46.
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I don't have the numbers in front of me but I think the UK HEMS accident rate is mercifully low, especially when compared to that of the USA. Do you think that there might be a connection between that low accident rate and the lack of night flying? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
If, as Jayteeto says, the numbers of ex-military pilots flying HEMS in the UK is much lower than the past, the risk involved by introducing NVGs into the mix is magnified further. For all the veteran pilots with 500+ hours on NVGs or, as Bap70 described, paramedics with thousands of missions behind them, there'll be just as many who are just finding their feet and feeling pressured to get the job done because the other guys do. Do you think the tasking authority or the management or the fundraisers or the public or the media will know which ones are on duty on any given day? Will they hell.
Do yourselves a favour and stick to daylight. Bats and prats and all that.
If, as Jayteeto says, the numbers of ex-military pilots flying HEMS in the UK is much lower than the past, the risk involved by introducing NVGs into the mix is magnified further. For all the veteran pilots with 500+ hours on NVGs or, as Bap70 described, paramedics with thousands of missions behind them, there'll be just as many who are just finding their feet and feeling pressured to get the job done because the other guys do. Do you think the tasking authority or the management or the fundraisers or the public or the media will know which ones are on duty on any given day? Will they hell.
Do yourselves a favour and stick to daylight. Bats and prats and all that.
Just think of how many extra land ambulances, paramedics and doctors the £4.5 million purchase cost and the £1.6 million running costs could provide
Helinut has mentioned the important word - 'essential'.
Primary HEMS in the UK has been shown to prevent death in only one situation - the severe isolated head injury where the aircraft carries a doctor that can anaesthetise the patient. The cost per life saved exceeds heart transplantation but the life is saved.
Leaving aside the use of HEMS to achieve government delivery targets, the other major benefit is to reduce transport times in the injured. If I fell off my horse in an isolated area and had a fracture and it was cold I would welcome the sight of a helicopter. It will lessen my suffering but it wont save my life.
The number of such situations at night is very low. Most trauma at night in the UK is from road traffic accidents and either land ambulances can arrive rapidly or the patient is entrapped so transportation is delayed.
At a time when the Kings Fund has just said the required £20 billion in healthcare savings cant be achieved, introducing night HEMS for the odd head injury is balmy.
Interhospital night transfers are different - we set up a national service in 1987, but the reality is that such transfers have become much less common in England and Wales with the exception of neonates who have a perfectly acceptable land based system for their clinical needs.
Primary HEMS in the UK has been shown to prevent death in only one situation - the severe isolated head injury where the aircraft carries a doctor that can anaesthetise the patient. The cost per life saved exceeds heart transplantation but the life is saved.
Leaving aside the use of HEMS to achieve government delivery targets, the other major benefit is to reduce transport times in the injured. If I fell off my horse in an isolated area and had a fracture and it was cold I would welcome the sight of a helicopter. It will lessen my suffering but it wont save my life.
The number of such situations at night is very low. Most trauma at night in the UK is from road traffic accidents and either land ambulances can arrive rapidly or the patient is entrapped so transportation is delayed.
At a time when the Kings Fund has just said the required £20 billion in healthcare savings cant be achieved, introducing night HEMS for the odd head injury is balmy.
Interhospital night transfers are different - we set up a national service in 1987, but the reality is that such transfers have become much less common in England and Wales with the exception of neonates who have a perfectly acceptable land based system for their clinical needs.
It is very difficult to objectively quantify the use of a helicopter but I have witnessed 3 successful resuscitations where the HEMS crew (2 paramedics by the way) were first on the scene by at least 30 minutes. Obviously not 'double blind scientific proof' but those 3 dead people were happy later.
People in the UK are happy to put their hands in their pockets to fund HEMS operations. They like air ambulances. Thats why there are 18 UK charities funding 25 helicopters. It's what the people want, whether you like it or not!
People in the UK are happy to put their hands in their pockets to fund HEMS operations. They like air ambulances. Thats why there are 18 UK charities funding 25 helicopters. It's what the people want, whether you like it or not!
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 29th Sep 2012 at 18:33.
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Liverpool ASU closed yonks ago. I am one of Bonds finest now (nearly 3 yrs). The company are trying to do this properly and professionally. They are using experienced personnel who are familiar with single pilot NVG and are fitting the cockpits out (unlike the Mil bodges) with compatible kit. I hope our charity want to join in with this, although I quite like permanent dayshifts!
As for pilots making sensible weather decisions, there goes the history of aviation.
As for saying how many more doctors and ambulances the money could buy? The answer is absolutely ZERO. If the politicians had this money it would be soaked up in red tape. We Dont just save lives Homon, we get people to hospital quickly, this can improve outcomes and recovery times. The current success is in getting cardiac patients from remote areas for PPCI treatment as quickly as possible. Often over an hour quicker than by road. The people putting money in the tins like that......
As for pilots making sensible weather decisions, there goes the history of aviation.
As for saying how many more doctors and ambulances the money could buy? The answer is absolutely ZERO. If the politicians had this money it would be soaked up in red tape. We Dont just save lives Homon, we get people to hospital quickly, this can improve outcomes and recovery times. The current success is in getting cardiac patients from remote areas for PPCI treatment as quickly as possible. Often over an hour quicker than by road. The people putting money in the tins like that......
It should also be worth looking at Australian HEMS, which (on the Eastern Seaboard) are almost exclusively Single Pilot, night, IFR and NVG with a qualified crewman in the LHS. Accident free to date (exclude those single engine/single pilot/NVFR of many years ago) the operators have matured a professional and competent set of standards that have proven the concept.
In Victoria (5 x HEMS) the qualified crewman is also expected to assist the Paramedic, so for the departure and Med 1 to hospital it is truly single pilot. Most are also Government funded contracts as part of the Healthcare budget for each State. With the greater distances required to be flown the majority of machines are 412s or AW139s.
In Victoria (5 x HEMS) the qualified crewman is also expected to assist the Paramedic, so for the departure and Med 1 to hospital it is truly single pilot. Most are also Government funded contracts as part of the Healthcare budget for each State. With the greater distances required to be flown the majority of machines are 412s or AW139s.
Just to add to the above comments...our operation in Oz utilises the crewman in the front left most of the time rather than being used as a paras helper (they have a doctor for that
)...the crewman is trained to act as a "non flying co pilot/ mission coordinator) so I guess its a "multi Crew" operation as opposed to single pilot as such. I believe CASA also stipulates NVG training and qualification requirements for such crewmembers (stand to be corrected though).
Exception to that would be for winch operations where he is in the cabin....looking forward to the comments on that
Cheers
)...the crewman is trained to act as a "non flying co pilot/ mission coordinator) so I guess its a "multi Crew" operation as opposed to single pilot as such. I believe CASA also stipulates NVG training and qualification requirements for such crewmembers (stand to be corrected though).Exception to that would be for winch operations where he is in the cabin....looking forward to the comments on that
Cheers
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t should also be worth looking at Australian HEMS, which (on the Eastern Seaboard) are almost exclusively Single Pilot, night, IFR and NVG with a qualified crewman in the LHS. Accident free to date (exclude those single engine/single pilot/NVFR of many years ago) the operators have matured a professional and competent set of standards that have proven the concept.
Last edited by M609; 30th Sep 2012 at 13:27.
Valid point about being a freebie Jayteeto but not quite accurate. The DoH funded 42 whole time posts at the London for HEMS. Most charities rely on NHS or other taxpayers money for pads, fire support, etc etc. I think the current situation with primary helicopters has worked out well with minimal money being diverted from the NHS even though your comments about outcome are not true.
My point is that there is really little benefit from going to night time operations. There will be some additional costs to the NHS. Agreed helicopters are sexy so the charities will get money in tins but the evidence is this costs other charities. I come at this purely as a doctor aware the UK has a poor standard of healthcare relying increasingly on charity for research and innovation. I don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul
My point is that there is really little benefit from going to night time operations. There will be some additional costs to the NHS. Agreed helicopters are sexy so the charities will get money in tins but the evidence is this costs other charities. I come at this purely as a doctor aware the UK has a poor standard of healthcare relying increasingly on charity for research and innovation. I don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul
Hmmm, qualified crewman in the LHS Vs paramedic shown how to use NVG - I know which model I would choose but what qualification/licence is there under CAA/EASA regs for that position?
As Vie points out - the single pilot element of night ops isn't new - it's who is in the LHS that is important.
Lots of rural areas are difficult enough to find LSs in by day - for more so by night and actually the same is probably true of urban areas.
Mighty Gem - my point was that with central coordination, your taskers would know where you were going and input that to the system which would then (in a perfect world) highlight any other conflicting activities.
Jayteeto - you didn't get the drift of my smilie ref costs then.
As Vie points out - the single pilot element of night ops isn't new - it's who is in the LHS that is important.
Lots of rural areas are difficult enough to find LSs in by day - for more so by night and actually the same is probably true of urban areas.
Mighty Gem - my point was that with central coordination, your taskers would know where you were going and input that to the system which would then (in a perfect world) highlight any other conflicting activities.
Jayteeto - you didn't get the drift of my smilie ref costs then.
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Officials look for answers in Iowa helicopter crash
Someone please tell me that those responsible for the introduction of night HEMS in the UK are taking a close look at the statistics coming out of the United States. I'm not pre-judging the outcome of the investigation into this crash in Iowa but the accident rate is grim beyond words.
The helicopter was equipped with the latest in helicopter EMS technology, including night vision goggles, a terrain warning system and a satellite tracking system