West Mids Air Ambulance going night flying?
I am not against NVG ops for air ambulances and indeed I applaud the work of our friend at Luftambulansetjenesten in Norway and also look forward to SAS Air Wing getting EC145T2 with NVG in 2014. No, the problem with NVG ops for air ambulances is when the charitable income of the organisations paying for these aircraft rely on them showing off.
Last edited by jimf671; 4th Jan 2013 at 19:19.
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I've flown and taught military NVG operations. We never flew single crew on NVG, even in stabilised aircraft. The reasons are, or should be, obvious to any experienced helicopter pilot.
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Don't say that too loud, you'll give people ideas. You were in a disciplined environment where everyone was subject to exacting selection, initial training, examinations, continuation training and standardisation. Is every HEMS pilot?
Don't say that too loud, you'll give people ideas. You were in a disciplined environment where everyone was subject to exacting selection, initial training, examinations, continuation training and standardisation. Is every HEMS pilot?
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The RAF DID do single pilot NVG. When a navigator sat in the front.
A suitably trained paramedic could pass the information required to the pilot. The most important thing is the quality of the training, ie dont be tight and make sure you give quality continuation training. I have a shedload of NVG instructional time, some hems pilots are not ex-military and are short of night flying time. They will need a quality training course and careful supervision, however it is a goer!
A suitably trained paramedic could pass the information required to the pilot. The most important thing is the quality of the training, ie dont be tight and make sure you give quality continuation training. I have a shedload of NVG instructional time, some hems pilots are not ex-military and are short of night flying time. They will need a quality training course and careful supervision, however it is a goer!
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The RAF DID do single pilot NVG. When a navigator sat in the front.
Now, back in my day, they made us strap things to our heads that looked like NVGs but they were just a box with two toilet roll tubes with green lenses on the end.
Seriously though, the major concern about NVGs is that proper training, a properly compatible aircraft and suitable SOPs are needed and they are definitely not a "strap on and press on VFR in any weather" solution that some seem to think they are. The ground always has a 100% win rate in any scrum with a helicopter.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 5th Jan 2013 at 09:50. Reason: typo/spelling
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Gazelle, no SAS, single crew NVG. NI, Bosnia, other places.
In addition to onesquartemetre's post, a minimum of Master Green IR, Above Average standards checks and with time to brief and plan with a good map appreciation for things like wires, masts and obstacles. Not to mention properly fitted helmets, a good on base servicing backup and currencies to maintain.
Throw in the age of the average air ambulance pilot and factor in the probable use of spectacles and it all starts to add up. http://www.ramcjournal.com/2000/feb00/manton.pdf
Further on the matter here http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/197...merged-31.html and the question has to be asked, if Police units equipped with NVG still have to have the camera and Nitesun requirements for ad hoc landings at night, how does a 'cash tight' air ambulance without that kit maximise safety in order achieve the aim?
I do wonder why air ambulances are so desperate to operate at night, when to have to have an extra crew on standby covering 24 hours will add quite an extra expenditure, or is it just to extend slightly into the evening periods of darkness and still leave any later evening and early hour jobs to the rozzers?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/477...ms-europe.html, latest replies to thread suggest NVG only to prepared sites.
Be good to hear the CAA's side of the discussion.
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Jayteeto, is it being pushed by the publicity men, the management and administrators, the trustees, the aircrew or the donating public? How many of those groups are fully appreciative of the depth to which the donating public are going to have to dig to make safe night HEMS in your area a reality?
Sid, from your linked paper, it seems sad that the AAC at Middle Wallop have not managed to procure at least one Hoffman box for setting up NVG. Each of our SAR flights has one and (although I have to nag people a lot) they do get used. Once a pilot knows how to set the goggles up properly they generally have far fewer issues with re-focussing or fatigue.
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No surprises there then!
Interestingly though, "The main reason for readjusting the goggles was that the flying helmet had moved,"
Doesn't this bring to our attention that even with the squippers being readily available at a military base, these problems are going to be there regardless of the focusing kit that the air ambulances decide to purchase.
I even use to get a refit after I had my haircut.
Interestingly though, "The main reason for readjusting the goggles was that the flying helmet had moved,"
Doesn't this bring to our attention that even with the squippers being readily available at a military base, these problems are going to be there regardless of the focusing kit that the air ambulances decide to purchase.
I even use to get a refit after I had my haircut.
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Nobody in our area is 'pushing'. Remember this while you discuss. If a landing site is outside limits by day, we land elsewhere. By night will be the same, pilots should only land when they are comfortable. We all know the need to set up kit correctly. Personally, if my helmet needs a refit, I would not operate until it was done. Everyone here is assuming that facilities will be crap, why? No likee, no flyee.
Its called Captaincy!
Its called Captaincy!
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No likee, no flyee. Its called Captaincy!
I've been out of police/hems ops for 5 yrs now so a bit rusty
Presumably JAR 300.5d is still the main ref for hems?
Presumably there is still a perceived difference w.r.t. rules between a HEMS responding helo and an air ambulance?? I can fully appreciate why the latter takes a lot of pressure off the CAA w.r.t. safety/crew concept/nvd etc.
It's a shame the Scottish model isn't extrapolated into the rest of the UK. The CAA must be very very close to carpet authorising of night AA now - no???
With modern cockpit configured a/c, modern Gen IV goggs, good CRM and a seasoned paramedic, I don't see why the CAA shouldn't give a night ticket to single pilot ops for AA.
HEMS may need tweaking though??
[I saw an earlier post about the accident in the US re NVD etc. The OP queried taking a closer look. The answer to their accident rate has been thrashed out several times and the culprit there is: press - on - itis. No issues with single pilot ops/equipment, I would suggest. Totally different mentality over there (the yanks have their work cut out for sure resolving company pressures to launch in bad weather).
The UK is years behind w.r.t. Night ops/NVD full stop - not just ambulance work. Look at all the other countries that already dabble with it.
My ten penneth worth: The CAA don't have enough bods on seats to process these applications fast enough
Together with E Mids, we introduced new gen (not old gen Bolkow117 nvg) NVD into police ops in 2000 (ish). 12+ years on and still no night ambulance NVG.
If anyone can crack this, BASL can.
Presumably JAR 300.5d is still the main ref for hems?
Presumably there is still a perceived difference w.r.t. rules between a HEMS responding helo and an air ambulance?? I can fully appreciate why the latter takes a lot of pressure off the CAA w.r.t. safety/crew concept/nvd etc.
It's a shame the Scottish model isn't extrapolated into the rest of the UK. The CAA must be very very close to carpet authorising of night AA now - no???
With modern cockpit configured a/c, modern Gen IV goggs, good CRM and a seasoned paramedic, I don't see why the CAA shouldn't give a night ticket to single pilot ops for AA.
HEMS may need tweaking though??
[I saw an earlier post about the accident in the US re NVD etc. The OP queried taking a closer look. The answer to their accident rate has been thrashed out several times and the culprit there is: press - on - itis. No issues with single pilot ops/equipment, I would suggest. Totally different mentality over there (the yanks have their work cut out for sure resolving company pressures to launch in bad weather).
The UK is years behind w.r.t. Night ops/NVD full stop - not just ambulance work. Look at all the other countries that already dabble with it.
My ten penneth worth: The CAA don't have enough bods on seats to process these applications fast enough
Together with E Mids, we introduced new gen (not old gen Bolkow117 nvg) NVD into police ops in 2000 (ish). 12+ years on and still no night ambulance NVG.
If anyone can crack this, BASL can.
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 5th Jan 2013 at 16:57.
NAVIGATORS....in the front? That gives away your youth, JT.
Now, back in my day, they made us strap things to our heads that looked like NVGs but they were just a box with two toilet roll tubes with green lenses on the end.
Now, back in my day, they made us strap things to our heads that looked like NVGs but they were just a box with two toilet roll tubes with green lenses on the end.
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PNG they were. Our Sqn SOP was always two pilots though.
The later ANVIS goggles are much better, of course, especially when coupled with an (essential, in my opinion) IR searchlight.
But preferably single pilot only for "nav assist" i.e. in transit and not for ad-hoc landings when wires are potential hidden killers.
The later ANVIS goggles are much better, of course, especially when coupled with an (essential, in my opinion) IR searchlight.
But preferably single pilot only for "nav assist" i.e. in transit and not for ad-hoc landings when wires are potential hidden killers.
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the UK is not the USA. I am aware of history, Bond captains are encouraged to be captains. I have been always been supported by management when I have made captaincy decisions. As long as they are justifiable, safety comes before commercial. I have no desire to night fly again, but am confident it will be safe, even single pilot.
especially when coupled with an (essential, in my opinion) IR searchlight.
Mind you, even scarier than single pilot NVG (ANVIS) was the original SOP when they gave the goggles (one pair per aircraft only) to the nav and he was supposed to talk the pilot to the casualty (SAR). Try that round the back of Lochnagar with cloud on't tops!
If only everyone was immune to external pressures that affect their decisions
It is the "Internal" pressures that get most folks as they are not observable and thus all the harder to see and avoid.
Combine the two....and that is where Mayhem is introduced into the HEMS/Air Ambulance business.
Now a for what it is worth......just what is it that makes the UK and US so different on this business of single pilot night NVG HEMS/Air Ambulance flying thing? Why are you folks going to be so much more successful at it? Certainly your weather reporting is much less effective than ours, your Airports are usually closed for use at night, and your accident stats for other operations compared to ours are not much different.
I see a disaster coming or am I wrong here?
SASless: Are you serious? Presumably you are talking from an American viewpoint?
If that is the case: Where have you been these last 10yrs+.
US EMS is endemic with press on itis. Everyone knows that and it has been debated time and again on this forum.
You've already read this:
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2011/AAR1104.pdf
C'mon - you're having a laugh, aren't you?
If that is the case: Where have you been these last 10yrs+.
US EMS is endemic with press on itis. Everyone knows that and it has been debated time and again on this forum.
You've already read this:
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2011/AAR1104.pdf
C'mon - you're having a laugh, aren't you?
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 6th Jan 2013 at 12:44.