West Mids Air Ambulance going night flying?
Al-bert,
Would you have done that flight sans Goggles?
Could you have done that flight sans Goggles?
Reason for asking.....I am a very strong supporter of incorporating NVG's into the HEMES Mission as being required equipment for Night Flying.
What are your thoughts on that idea?
Would you have done that flight sans Goggles?
Could you have done that flight sans Goggles?
Reason for asking.....I am a very strong supporter of incorporating NVG's into the HEMES Mission as being required equipment for Night Flying.
What are your thoughts on that idea?
SAS......good question...probably could have, wouldn't have liked to sans goggles, shouldn't have anyway! And FYI we were a four man crew, in a Seaking Mk3 therefore search radar, dedicated and competant radop, radar height hold, winchman to make coffee (joke!) 
Fantastic pilots
But
Why????
If you were just moving a transplant surgeon it was a total waste - there are loads in both Newcastle and London
If you were moving a patient god only knows what a surgeon was doing on board as a surgeon is fat use in caring for a sick patient in a helicopter - that is the role of an intensivist
I appreciate you were following orders and I suspect those taking the decision did so in the belief they were helping mankind not to mention making some dosh, but I can't think of ANY possible justification for such a flight on medical grounds
Doubtless the doctors would have been totally ignorant of the risks and I suspect the surgeon has dined out on how he flew under bridges
It just goes to show that no matter how much safer we believe we are compared to the US we lack the ability to assess the real benefit and need. We put machines and crew at unnecessary risk and thank our lucky stars we got away with it
But
Why????
If you were just moving a transplant surgeon it was a total waste - there are loads in both Newcastle and London
If you were moving a patient god only knows what a surgeon was doing on board as a surgeon is fat use in caring for a sick patient in a helicopter - that is the role of an intensivist
I appreciate you were following orders and I suspect those taking the decision did so in the belief they were helping mankind not to mention making some dosh, but I can't think of ANY possible justification for such a flight on medical grounds
Doubtless the doctors would have been totally ignorant of the risks and I suspect the surgeon has dined out on how he flew under bridges
It just goes to show that no matter how much safer we believe we are compared to the US we lack the ability to assess the real benefit and need. We put machines and crew at unnecessary risk and thank our lucky stars we got away with it
Homonculus,
Who are you responding to?
Injuries/transfer of organs/equipment/specialist treatment (burns/children/head injuries/bends) - don't care if it's day or night???
Are you against air ambulance/hems in general because I don't understand where you are coming from w.r.t. the difference between day or night transits.
You are correct that night transfers/flights will require additional and more costly overheads because of the environ. BUT there is still the same demand at night as there is during the day. SO provided the public pay for the service (via charities) then so be it, let's get on with it.
Some of these charities are very very rich, coining in, in excess of millions/year - easily.
The public have a soft spot for air ambulances, let's maximise the benefits.
Who are you responding to?
Injuries/transfer of organs/equipment/specialist treatment (burns/children/head injuries/bends) - don't care if it's day or night???
Are you against air ambulance/hems in general because I don't understand where you are coming from w.r.t. the difference between day or night transits.
You are correct that night transfers/flights will require additional and more costly overheads because of the environ. BUT there is still the same demand at night as there is during the day. SO provided the public pay for the service (via charities) then so be it, let's get on with it.
Some of these charities are very very rich, coining in, in excess of millions/year - easily.
The public have a soft spot for air ambulances, let's maximise the benefits.
t just goes to show that no matter how much safer we believe we are compared to the US we lack the ability to assess the real benefit and need. We put machines and crew at unnecessary risk and thank our lucky stars we got away with it
Isn't that what you really meant to say HOM?
We put machines and crew at unnecessary risk and thank our lucky stars we got away with it
One has to be alert to the possibility that risking a crew and aircraft unnecessarily exists in all such operations.
And a SAR crew is better placed to judge what is or isn't high risk because there are four full-time aviation professionals on board, any of whom can and will speak up if they have concerns about the way things are going. No offence at all to paramedics/police observers etc, but a true-blood pilot/crewman will in almost every case have a better understanding of the aviation aspects of the missions and the self-assurance to offer his/her thoughts. The NTSB report which TC highlights is a case in point.
Last edited by TorqueOfTheDevil; 9th Jan 2013 at 15:14.
The only way to avoid single pilot night HEMS IIMC crashes (as so many of the US ones seem to be) is to have strict weather limits and actually adhere to them.
If the pilot says no then remove the financial pressure to fly the mission and accept his decision as final.
If the pilot says no then remove the financial pressure to fly the mission and accept his decision as final.
SASless - correct
TorqueoftheDevil - I fully agree an SAR crew is best placed to decide whether a flight can be undertaken. However they are not qualified to know if the reason it is being requested warrants it.
TC - sorry, I wont cross swords with you on aviation, but I will on medicine. Trauma at night is different. We have to go back to the mid 80s to a time where secondary transfers to regional centres were supported. Head injuries are now treated in primary centres. Equipment is not needed to be moved in the night. And organ transfers are now contracted out to fixed wing services. I had been moving most children in the south but most of these have now transferred to land transfer despite the availability of air transportation.
What is being considered here is primary HEMS - road traffic accidents in the main as people dont ride horses on moors or go rock climbing at night!!!! It is different
No I am not against air ambulances - I have spent the last thirty years one way or another doing research and supporting them in my role as a doctor in this field. but that does mean I have a responsibility to point out the limitation of need.
Finally, I wont bore you but the medical and nursing manpower situation is such in England and Wales that this idea would put considerable extra strain on hospitals which cannot be relieved by charitable nor NHS money, and might compromise other services.
I realise this is getting off thread a little - ie can it be flown safely - and I am happy to discuss further if you pm me
TorqueoftheDevil - I fully agree an SAR crew is best placed to decide whether a flight can be undertaken. However they are not qualified to know if the reason it is being requested warrants it.
TC - sorry, I wont cross swords with you on aviation, but I will on medicine. Trauma at night is different. We have to go back to the mid 80s to a time where secondary transfers to regional centres were supported. Head injuries are now treated in primary centres. Equipment is not needed to be moved in the night. And organ transfers are now contracted out to fixed wing services. I had been moving most children in the south but most of these have now transferred to land transfer despite the availability of air transportation.
What is being considered here is primary HEMS - road traffic accidents in the main as people dont ride horses on moors or go rock climbing at night!!!! It is different
No I am not against air ambulances - I have spent the last thirty years one way or another doing research and supporting them in my role as a doctor in this field. but that does mean I have a responsibility to point out the limitation of need.
Finally, I wont bore you but the medical and nursing manpower situation is such in England and Wales that this idea would put considerable extra strain on hospitals which cannot be relieved by charitable nor NHS money, and might compromise other services.
I realise this is getting off thread a little - ie can it be flown safely - and I am happy to discuss further if you pm me
Hom,
the sortie I described in a little detail should NOT have been flown, but then again, the liver that was waiting in London may have gone to someone else (perhaps more deserving but less well connected?). I'm assuming that the highly qualified medical escort that came with the patient in some way reflected his status? Despite his somewhat hippy and dishevelled appearance (the patient, not the Dr!) he was AWFULLY well spoken.
I was effectively ordered to fly the mission (I have no idea how high that decision was taken) but after turning it down once due to weather I was asked COULD I do it - I could, and did.
the sortie I described in a little detail should NOT have been flown, but then again, the liver that was waiting in London may have gone to someone else (perhaps more deserving but less well connected?). I'm assuming that the highly qualified medical escort that came with the patient in some way reflected his status? Despite his somewhat hippy and dishevelled appearance (the patient, not the Dr!) he was AWFULLY well spoken.
I was effectively ordered to fly the mission (I have no idea how high that decision was taken) but after turning it down once due to weather I was asked COULD I do it - I could, and did.
Last edited by Al-bert; 9th Jan 2013 at 19:18.
The only way to avoid single pilot night HEMS IIMC crashes (as so many of the US ones seem to be) is to have strict weather limits and actually adhere to them.
Now that you have set that limit(s)....tell me how you ensure the Weather forecasts are accurate and take into consideration local weather phenomenon peculiar to very small parts of the area you are going to fly in. (mountains, coastal plains subject to Sea Fog, Valley's with streams and rivers in them, and other isolated weather problems).
As has been argued over and over before....you can set make all the rules you want....set all the weather minimums you wish (on paper), but the devil is in the details.....actually making all those rules and minima work with the reality of flying.
Al-bert
You just did your job and did it well.
You don't say how long ago it was. Nowadays all organs are coordinated across Europe and indeed worldwide. Out ability to keep the organ until it is plumbed in has advanced. And transplant surgeons are no longer revered as gods - I recall one such gentleman who used to keep a kidney in the boot of his car. When stopped for speeding he would yank it out and shove it at the traffic officer. Little did they know his wife got a new one each Saturday at Dewhurst when collecting the Sunday roast.
Anyhow, nowadays we know where the organ is going well in advance. The patient has time to travel in. And the organ is moved by contractors. Not as exciting but then it is pretty simple work. The clever bit is the prevention of rejection and the work done by immunologists and biochemists - mostly British
You just did your job and did it well.
You don't say how long ago it was. Nowadays all organs are coordinated across Europe and indeed worldwide. Out ability to keep the organ until it is plumbed in has advanced. And transplant surgeons are no longer revered as gods - I recall one such gentleman who used to keep a kidney in the boot of his car. When stopped for speeding he would yank it out and shove it at the traffic officer. Little did they know his wife got a new one each Saturday at Dewhurst when collecting the Sunday roast.
Anyhow, nowadays we know where the organ is going well in advance. The patient has time to travel in. And the organ is moved by contractors. Not as exciting but then it is pretty simple work. The clever bit is the prevention of rejection and the work done by immunologists and biochemists - mostly British
tell me how you ensure the Weather forecasts are accurate
Had a read of the HEMS section in the NPAS(the UK's National Police Air Service) the other night, and if I recall correctly the night weather limits were 3000m viz and 1200' cloudbase.
Avoid imitations
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Doesn't really matter what the cloud base is if you lose control after inadvertently entering it. Obviously, a TAF or METAR is only a piece of paper. It only takes a small local weather variation to cause a nonsense of either.
The real issue is how the pilot recovers from a deteriorating weather situation.
The real issue is how the pilot recovers from a deteriorating weather situation.
3000 meters.....just shy of two miles....night....dark area no lights natural or manmade....drizzle/mist....actual visibility is what.... you say?
Add NVG's....(keeping the same weather minimums)....same situation....what is the real visibility?
For VFR flying....looking outside and controlling the aircraft by means of visual ground reference (at night in the USA...requires sufficient light reference) means visual cues sufficient to see and control the aircraft....no matter what the stated vis that is contained in the TAF.
I see the TAF being one of the hurtles one has to get over to be able to fly.
If the numbers on the TAF are lower than that required by SOP, REG, AOC, OpSpecs.....one does not fly. If they agree or exceed the minimum numbers then one gets to make a decision to Go or Not Go. The closer the numbers are to the Minimum....the less interested I am in going flying especially at night.
Some issues like temp/dew point spread and wind speed.....all by themselves can decide if I go or not. Fog being a ground based weather event....kills helicopter pilots. Low ceilings and excellent Vis are a different story....as one can see something. It is the not seeing that gets us. Like not seeing the cloud bank or Fog Bank you are about to run into....or that set of Wires....or the Hill....or Mast.
Add NVG's....(keeping the same weather minimums)....same situation....what is the real visibility?
For VFR flying....looking outside and controlling the aircraft by means of visual ground reference (at night in the USA...requires sufficient light reference) means visual cues sufficient to see and control the aircraft....no matter what the stated vis that is contained in the TAF.
I see the TAF being one of the hurtles one has to get over to be able to fly.
If the numbers on the TAF are lower than that required by SOP, REG, AOC, OpSpecs.....one does not fly. If they agree or exceed the minimum numbers then one gets to make a decision to Go or Not Go. The closer the numbers are to the Minimum....the less interested I am in going flying especially at night.
Some issues like temp/dew point spread and wind speed.....all by themselves can decide if I go or not. Fog being a ground based weather event....kills helicopter pilots. Low ceilings and excellent Vis are a different story....as one can see something. It is the not seeing that gets us. Like not seeing the cloud bank or Fog Bank you are about to run into....or that set of Wires....or the Hill....or Mast.
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SASless, you're preaching to the converted.
NVGs are obviously a good aid (I used to be a UK military and civilian NVG instructor) but unfortunately if you allow them to take you into reduced naked eye visibility you are likely to still need an IFR fallback plan because you'll probably be further into IMC than you would have been without them. There's the catch.
NVGs are obviously a good aid (I used to be a UK military and civilian NVG instructor) but unfortunately if you allow them to take you into reduced naked eye visibility you are likely to still need an IFR fallback plan because you'll probably be further into IMC than you would have been without them. There's the catch.
