UK C of A Categories
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UK C of A Categories
In the UK are there only two C of A categories:
Public Transport
Permit to Fly
or is there more?
Is Permit to Fly different for ex military aircraft against non military machines or are the rules the same?
Cheers
Steve
Public Transport
Permit to Fly
or is there more?
Is Permit to Fly different for ex military aircraft against non military machines or are the rules the same?
Cheers
Steve
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I need to check out an Air Navigation Order when I get a chance. In the mean time do you know if you can carry non fare paying passengers with a Private Category.
Thanks
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Steve,
There are 5 categories of UK C of A and uses:
Transport (Passenger) Any purpose
Transport (Cargo) Any purpose, except public transport of pax
Aerial Work Any purpose other than PT
Private Any purpose other than PT or aerial work
Special
There are also permits to fly that give more limited "permissions to fly" than C of As. I believe that only CAA Permits are issued for helicopters. Permit aircraft are rather limited in the way that they can be used; in particular there are limitations on carrying of pax.
You can carry pax in a Private Cat aircraft, but there should not be any remuneration changing hands, other than a limited facility to share direct costs of operation.
Its all in the ANO, of course. See Articles 3(2), 8(2) and Schedule 3
There are 5 categories of UK C of A and uses:
Transport (Passenger) Any purpose
Transport (Cargo) Any purpose, except public transport of pax
Aerial Work Any purpose other than PT
Private Any purpose other than PT or aerial work
Special
There are also permits to fly that give more limited "permissions to fly" than C of As. I believe that only CAA Permits are issued for helicopters. Permit aircraft are rather limited in the way that they can be used; in particular there are limitations on carrying of pax.
You can carry pax in a Private Cat aircraft, but there should not be any remuneration changing hands, other than a limited facility to share direct costs of operation.
Its all in the ANO, of course. See Articles 3(2), 8(2) and Schedule 3
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Steve,
All you have to do is ask you friendly local Ops Manager. He's got a nice new up to date ANO for you to have a look at.
Contrary to popular belief Ops people want pilots to fly too.
Connavar.
All you have to do is ask you friendly local Ops Manager. He's got a nice new up to date ANO for you to have a look at.
Contrary to popular belief Ops people want pilots to fly too.
Connavar.
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Cheers everyone for your replies.
I had a look at the ANO last weekend and came away not finding much out.
My current heli has a Public Transport C of A and I was wondering if there was anything to gain by getting a Private C of A instead if I only use it myself.
I had a look at the ANO last weekend and came away not finding much out.
My current heli has a Public Transport C of A and I was wondering if there was anything to gain by getting a Private C of A instead if I only use it myself.
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Steve,
The main difference is that you could have a private rather than PT Cat maintenance schedule. Normally, this would mean that you could do away with intermediate "62 day" inspections. Presumably, if you were just using it yourself the hours flown would be much reduced, so there would be a saving.
What difference this would make depends in the end on how much you fly and what was the exact PT maintenance programme that you moved from. The maintenance organisation that maintains your aircraftshould be able to tell you exactly what the changes would be.
The main difference is that you could have a private rather than PT Cat maintenance schedule. Normally, this would mean that you could do away with intermediate "62 day" inspections. Presumably, if you were just using it yourself the hours flown would be much reduced, so there would be a saving.
What difference this would make depends in the end on how much you fly and what was the exact PT maintenance programme that you moved from. The maintenance organisation that maintains your aircraftshould be able to tell you exactly what the changes would be.
Last edited by Helinut; 12th Apr 2002 at 11:47.
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Steve
Looking at your most recent posting, it puts your original question in slightly different light. I think you need to look at things like
- preflight requirements - I think a PT helo needs a preflight once per flight and a Priv one once per day - or some difference like that
- engineering rules - if you take a door off a PT helicopter to fly without it in the summer (two split pins on a robbo, hardly rocket science) then I believe you have to have a licenced engineer replace the door!!! That rule does not apply on a Priv helo.
Uh oh, another CAA minefield...
Looking at your most recent posting, it puts your original question in slightly different light. I think you need to look at things like
- preflight requirements - I think a PT helo needs a preflight once per flight and a Priv one once per day - or some difference like that
- engineering rules - if you take a door off a PT helicopter to fly without it in the summer (two split pins on a robbo, hardly rocket science) then I believe you have to have a licenced engineer replace the door!!! That rule does not apply on a Priv helo.
Uh oh, another CAA minefield...
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You've been given the answer.
See in particular Helinutt's reply. I can't see how he could have made it clearer or simpler.
I find it amazing that you are a helicopter pilot (presumably) and you own your own helicopter, and you didn't know whether you could carry non fare paying passengers in a helicopter with a Private category CofA.
By all means post a question to a flying magazine, but it might be a lot simpler to ask the people who maintain your helicopter.
You did say you had a helicopter, didn't you.
See in particular Helinutt's reply. I can't see how he could have made it clearer or simpler.
I find it amazing that you are a helicopter pilot (presumably) and you own your own helicopter, and you didn't know whether you could carry non fare paying passengers in a helicopter with a Private category CofA.
By all means post a question to a flying magazine, but it might be a lot simpler to ask the people who maintain your helicopter.
You did say you had a helicopter, didn't you.
Last edited by Hoverman; 18th Apr 2002 at 08:26.
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My helicopter came with a PT but I can looking at getting another. The mixed responses I am getting are not from this forum but from other people I have chatted to.
I was told last weekend that the 62 day check is not mandatory for a PT on an Enstrom which is what I am looking at. It does appear to be dependant on the Maintenance organisation which is what Helinut stated earlier, regardless of PT or Private.
It is a very gray area but the bottom line is, PT gives me more options than Private and I am wondering now what benefit it would be changing a machine that already has a PT to Private. I believe PT renewel is around £1000, not sure what Private is.
If I end up not having to do a 25 hour oil change and a mandatory 62 day check, I'll be happy.
I was told last weekend that the 62 day check is not mandatory for a PT on an Enstrom which is what I am looking at. It does appear to be dependant on the Maintenance organisation which is what Helinut stated earlier, regardless of PT or Private.
It is a very gray area but the bottom line is, PT gives me more options than Private and I am wondering now what benefit it would be changing a machine that already has a PT to Private. I believe PT renewel is around £1000, not sure what Private is.
If I end up not having to do a 25 hour oil change and a mandatory 62 day check, I'll be happy.
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Steve,
I think you should try and sit down with your maintenance organisation and talk to them about your particular situation.
I don't know, but I guess that your R22 is PT because it is or was hired out for SFH or for training. In this case, any old PT maintenace schedule that the CAA will accept will be OK. If the aircraft was used for public transport by an AOC holder, then it is mandatory that the aircraft is maintained to the approved maintenance schedule that is owned by the AOC holder (ain't the JAR wonderful). One of the few useful spin-offs of the whole JAR nonsense has been that AOC holders using piston-engine helicopters have been able/required to move away from the LAMS schedule (which for those who don't know is the old "standard" schedule for P/E heles). It is LAMS that has the 62 day checks which is a sort of intermediary check imposed by the CAA for aircraft that don't fly very much - this is the schedule that has a 62 day check in it.
These days it is possible to have a R22 on the PT C of A which does not have a 62 day check but you need to find an approved maintenance schedule that does not include one.
I think I am losing the will to live - I really recommend that you talk in depth to your existing or proposed future engineers.
Don't be surprised if the recertification of your aircraft, STAR Annual, flight test etc costs more than £1,000 ....
I think you should try and sit down with your maintenance organisation and talk to them about your particular situation.
I don't know, but I guess that your R22 is PT because it is or was hired out for SFH or for training. In this case, any old PT maintenace schedule that the CAA will accept will be OK. If the aircraft was used for public transport by an AOC holder, then it is mandatory that the aircraft is maintained to the approved maintenance schedule that is owned by the AOC holder (ain't the JAR wonderful). One of the few useful spin-offs of the whole JAR nonsense has been that AOC holders using piston-engine helicopters have been able/required to move away from the LAMS schedule (which for those who don't know is the old "standard" schedule for P/E heles). It is LAMS that has the 62 day checks which is a sort of intermediary check imposed by the CAA for aircraft that don't fly very much - this is the schedule that has a 62 day check in it.
These days it is possible to have a R22 on the PT C of A which does not have a 62 day check but you need to find an approved maintenance schedule that does not include one.
I think I am losing the will to live - I really recommend that you talk in depth to your existing or proposed future engineers.
Don't be surprised if the recertification of your aircraft, STAR Annual, flight test etc costs more than £1,000 ....
