rating cost: R22 -> S300C
rating cost: R22 -> S300C
I was wondering how many hours a freshly baked R22 private pilot would have to spend in an S300C to get the additional rating?
Background: a local school (A) offers the PPLH for R22 at 19999 all inclusive (down to tax, fuel and landing fees!).
Another one (B) wants 20040, excluding landing fees.
The school (C) I'm interested in signing up is near by but wants 23900 excl. landing fees for a PPLH on a S300
I'd like to argue, that for the 4 grand difference (C-A) I could get me 8 hours in an S300 and would have both ratings for the price asked by C for just the S300. And I don't want to embarrass myself by arguing used foul numbers.
Background: a local school (A) offers the PPLH for R22 at 19999 all inclusive (down to tax, fuel and landing fees!).
Another one (B) wants 20040, excluding landing fees.
The school (C) I'm interested in signing up is near by but wants 23900 excl. landing fees for a PPLH on a S300
I'd like to argue, that for the 4 grand difference (C-A) I could get me 8 hours in an S300 and would have both ratings for the price asked by C for just the S300. And I don't want to embarrass myself by arguing used foul numbers.
Last edited by Reely340; 23rd Jul 2012 at 17:10.
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Be careful, surely the price they quote is on the minimum hours and you will have to pay per hour on top of that, It may take you longer to learn in an R22 than the 300 (this is generally the case) so costs usually end up similar.
Which aircraft will you want to fly or is available to you after the PPL?
Which aircraft will you want to fly or is available to you after the PPL?
weighing in at 240lbs I'd rather fly the 300, there's a slight chance I might be able to load a passenger. I've got 2 schools who rent S300s and one place having R22's within an hour drive of my home.
I'm wondering whether the additional 3900 for S300 based training are pure "greed" or if they are justified by actually higher operating cost per hour for the school. Its an uneasy feeling paying 20% more just because the people a friendly and train on S300s..
I'm wondering whether the additional 3900 for S300 based training are pure "greed" or if they are justified by actually higher operating cost per hour for the school. Its an uneasy feeling paying 20% more just because the people a friendly and train on S300s..
No greed. The school offering the S300 training is quite likely making less profit. Their operating cost will be way higher.
As mentioned, most don't complete their PPL(H) in the minimum hours those numbers will be based on. It is possible that the R22 budget would blow out by more than the S300 - or so I have heard.
I don't think anyone with greed as a driver would be offering flight training to PPL(H) students!
As mentioned, most don't complete their PPL(H) in the minimum hours those numbers will be based on. It is possible that the R22 budget would blow out by more than the S300 - or so I have heard.
I don't think anyone with greed as a driver would be offering flight training to PPL(H) students!
Last edited by krypton_john; 23rd Jul 2012 at 19:58.
To answer the original question, you need two hours plus a checkride to get the additional HU269 rating.
Factor in the initial PPL with approximately 50 hours of flight time.
If you do it part time, like weekends only and have longs breaks inbetween i.e. due to weather, make it 55 to 60 hours.
Factor in the initial PPL with approximately 50 hours of flight time.
If you do it part time, like weekends only and have longs breaks inbetween i.e. due to weather, make it 55 to 60 hours.
having worked for a school that had both types most students finished their ppl usng about 15% less hours in a 300 than in an R22
The 300 has the advantage of giving you and the instructor a bigger margin of error so one tends to learn quicker on the 300.
Realistically the most important aspect is the instructor, Get one who has a good 1000 hours on type, he will know the machine well and then stick with him
Good luck, or get an R22 rating and come over to UK and i will do a 300 conversion ( have about 4000 hours teaching on 300's)
The 300 has the advantage of giving you and the instructor a bigger margin of error so one tends to learn quicker on the 300.
Realistically the most important aspect is the instructor, Get one who has a good 1000 hours on type, he will know the machine well and then stick with him
Good luck, or get an R22 rating and come over to UK and i will do a 300 conversion ( have about 4000 hours teaching on 300's)
Hovering AND talking
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To answer the original question, you need two hours plus a checkride to get the additional HU269 rating.
With 250 hours under my belt when I started the R22 rating, I still found the R22 tricky; twitchy (I had to actually manipulate the yaw pedals rather than use them as a foot-rest), carb-heat (eek - scary), but governor-off training? Hardly noticed!!!
If you can fly an S300, you can fly anything.
With all the hindsight I can possibly muster with my 300 hours experience, I'm glad I learnt first on a Schweizer; it's a cracking little helicopter that will forgive the odd trangression - the R22 might not!
Cheers
Whirls
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I have the exact opposite view th that expressed by WhirlyGig.
I am glad I trained on the R-22 and then transitioned to the H300.
Still it does not matter one way or the other.
Most people find the R-22 much more difficult to fly than the H300, as it is very light and exceptionally sensitive on the comtrols compared to the H300.
My instructor advised training on the R-22 and then moving to the H300, as most students found moving from R22 to 300 easy, but many foundvit a challenge to go the other way (a challenge, but very doable with a bit of extra time).
It is alsosaid if you can fly an R22, you can fly anything, but I haven't heard it said about thr H300 before.
In the end, when I went to transition onto the H300, I was amazed at how stable and almost boring it was (just as a good training helicopter should be).
So you will be able to fly both easily, and thevone you train on will be the one you prefer over the other (I love the twitch lightness ofvthe R22 and the fact it makes you do auto's perfectly, as you can't get away with near enough. i think this makes you a better pilot (to learn on the more difficult machine), but probably justbthat having trained on the 22, I am prejudiced in favour of it.
In the end, both will teach you to fly well if you have a good instructor, the 22 is harder to fly, the 300 safer, and you will transition more easily frona22 to a 300, than from a 300 to a 22.
Enjoy the journey.
John
I am glad I trained on the R-22 and then transitioned to the H300.
Still it does not matter one way or the other.
Most people find the R-22 much more difficult to fly than the H300, as it is very light and exceptionally sensitive on the comtrols compared to the H300.
My instructor advised training on the R-22 and then moving to the H300, as most students found moving from R22 to 300 easy, but many foundvit a challenge to go the other way (a challenge, but very doable with a bit of extra time).
It is alsosaid if you can fly an R22, you can fly anything, but I haven't heard it said about thr H300 before.
In the end, when I went to transition onto the H300, I was amazed at how stable and almost boring it was (just as a good training helicopter should be).
So you will be able to fly both easily, and thevone you train on will be the one you prefer over the other (I love the twitch lightness ofvthe R22 and the fact it makes you do auto's perfectly, as you can't get away with near enough. i think this makes you a better pilot (to learn on the more difficult machine), but probably justbthat having trained on the 22, I am prejudiced in favour of it.
In the end, both will teach you to fly well if you have a good instructor, the 22 is harder to fly, the 300 safer, and you will transition more easily frona22 to a 300, than from a 300 to a 22.
Enjoy the journey.
John
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Enstrom 480 Turbine PPL (H)
Hi
We at Shoreham Helicopters Ltd can match the S300 in an Enstrom 480 turbine just got to add landing, sortie, fees etc plus dreaded VAT.
If thats any use to you.
Kind Regards
Tim Price
Head of Training
We at Shoreham Helicopters Ltd can match the S300 in an Enstrom 480 turbine just got to add landing, sortie, fees etc plus dreaded VAT.
If thats any use to you.
Kind Regards
Tim Price
Head of Training
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If you can fly an S300, you can fly anything.
We at Shoreham Helicopters Ltd can match the S300 in an Enstrom 480 turbine just got to add landing, sortie, fees etc plus dreaded VAT.
So, finally we have a deal. His 23600 now include 47(!)h with FI.
In case I need them for additional training.
Or, should I turn out to be 45h PPL type, I've got 2 "free" hours of private flying, including gas.
Fair deal, all are happy, and I've already clocked 3h airtime.
Flying and especially turning by rotor-disk vs. horizon check (instead of hopping thru all instruments) is beginning to work, hovering with stick+paddle works for ~15 secs. Training IS a hoot
In case I need them for additional training.
Or, should I turn out to be 45h PPL type, I've got 2 "free" hours of private flying, including gas.
Fair deal, all are happy, and I've already clocked 3h airtime.
Flying and especially turning by rotor-disk vs. horizon check (instead of hopping thru all instruments) is beginning to work, hovering with stick+paddle works for ~15 secs.
Training IS a hoot
Last edited by Reely340; 24th Jul 2012 at 17:07.
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Good choice.
Three reasons for training on the R22:
- You want the lowest cost
- There's lots around
- You plan to fly other Robinson products
Three reasons for choosing the S.300
- It was developed as a training helicopter
- It has a more sophisticated design
- It has greater active and passive safety
Remember with the later 300s there are three models - CB, CBi and C - The 300'C' being the best.
Interesting Tim should mention the EN 480 Turbine. I learnt to fly in a 300C, but now regularly fly an EN 480B. However, for fun, I still regularly fly a 300C.
I can tell you, the 480 is much easier to fly than a 300 or R22. If learning to fly a helicopter quickly was an issue (not necessarily sensible) then I would recommend the 480.
Three reasons for training on the R22:
- You want the lowest cost
- There's lots around
- You plan to fly other Robinson products
Three reasons for choosing the S.300
- It was developed as a training helicopter
- It has a more sophisticated design
- It has greater active and passive safety
Remember with the later 300s there are three models - CB, CBi and C - The 300'C' being the best.
Interesting Tim should mention the EN 480 Turbine. I learnt to fly in a 300C, but now regularly fly an EN 480B. However, for fun, I still regularly fly a 300C.
I can tell you, the 480 is much easier to fly than a 300 or R22. If learning to fly a helicopter quickly was an issue (not necessarily sensible) then I would recommend the 480.
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Enstrom 480 is King
EN480 is the best training machine at the moment, based on how long the average person will take to complete the course.
If you want safety, nothing beats an Enstrom.
Pound for pound its very difficult to beat.
If you want safety, nothing beats an Enstrom.
Pound for pound its very difficult to beat.
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I believe the purpose of helicopter training is to make you the best/safest pilot possible not an exercise in finding the cheapest/fastest/lowest hours/easiest to fly route.
Yes, seek a good deal, but the most important part of training is the guy sitting next to you your chosen instructor.
R22 can be an excellent training machine with a good instructor. Yes, there are easier-to-fly and more crashworthy designs. An example: a R44 will hide a lot of sloppy piloting, but in the R22 no mistake goes unnoticed.
Some notes:
- Be wary of deals with all inclusive pricing (they havent even seen you fly yet, let alone consider all the variables that can increase/decrease your hours to examination flight.
- Take into consideration what type of flying you will doing after getting PPL (can you SFH that type where you live)
- R22 weight limit is 240lb/seat, whereas R44 limit is 300/b/seat. You noted you were heavy (possibly also consider a R44 Raven I which can be found at pricing near S300 in some locations)
Yes, seek a good deal, but the most important part of training is the guy sitting next to you your chosen instructor.
R22 can be an excellent training machine with a good instructor. Yes, there are easier-to-fly and more crashworthy designs. An example: a R44 will hide a lot of sloppy piloting, but in the R22 no mistake goes unnoticed.
Some notes:
- Be wary of deals with all inclusive pricing (they havent even seen you fly yet, let alone consider all the variables that can increase/decrease your hours to examination flight.
- Take into consideration what type of flying you will doing after getting PPL (can you SFH that type where you live)
- R22 weight limit is 240lb/seat, whereas R44 limit is 300/b/seat. You noted you were heavy (possibly also consider a R44 Raven I which can be found at pricing near S300 in some locations)
Last edited by RMK; 25th Jul 2012 at 09:38.
We at Shoreham Helicopters Ltd can match the S300 in an Enstrom 480 turbine just got to add landing, sortie, fees etc plus dreaded VAT.
If I switch on "helicopters" in Aircraft Cost Summary the 480 Turbine costs twice as much as a S-300C, per hour.
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S300Cbi
Hello everyone.
I agree with all that S300 is easier to fly...Even know the place where you can made that for 19,000 Euro (45hours)...in place with nice girls
Greets
Jack
I agree with all that S300 is easier to fly...Even know the place where you can made that for 19,000 Euro (45hours)...in place with nice girls
Greets
Jack
