Portugal HEMS

[400hover]

It looks like that in the beginning of 2013 Portugal is about to reorganize their HEMS service... Right now there is 3 x A109E + 2 B412EP, and there the new organization will be: 3x A109E + 2 KA32 (WTF) + 1 AS350

The government says that it will be better than before, and that they are using the Ka32 (which belongs to the national govern) in order to save money!!

Does the heat of the summer has some secondary effects on the politics mind???

[RicardoGarces]

Hello friend.

It's not as you have put it.

Portugal at the present time has a National company that operates the civil protection aircraft. Usually they are called to perform firefighting and other missions related with the area.

From 2013 that national company will cease it's existence and the aircraft will be moved to a new company that will take both civil and HEMS operations.

Unfortunately at a given point in history someone thought that buying KA32's would be a great idea... this is just another example of politics messing with things that should have been the pilots to decide and to provide valid opinions.

But, then again, there must have been some special deal, not necessarily aeronautical related to have Portugal buy those helicopters. Politics.

Now we are stuck with those beasts. They are expensive, they are a mess, but there is no turning back on the clock.

Cheers!

[apb]

It could be temporary because the initial idea was sell their Kamov.
This is another bad new for Inaer group, These two 412 are operated by Inaer.

[Jet Ranger]

Does that mean that INAER PORTUGAL lost their national HEMS contract ?

And that in the future some kind of state agency (company) will do that?


JR

[RicardoGarces]

Not sure what the outcome will be.

Inaer didn't lose anything so far... they might even get everything.

But I guess this is a tricky deal... can you imagine having to integrate KA32's in your fleet!? and make them profitable?..

Let's wait and see.

[hueyracer]

Come on, guys-the rotary business has never gone well in Portugal-neither has the performance on INAER.....

Insisting to use their own pilots over more experienced european pilots, several crashs EVERY year.....

[malabo]

What's the issue with the Ka-32? Utility guys use them here for heavy-lifting and they work well. Reliable, plenty of power, good autopilot system. Needs some avionics added. Compact and no tailtrotor should be a bonus for EMS. They push a lot of air in a hover though, but then so does the 139.

Sounds like your problem might be pilot training or a maintenance program.

[Clavileņo]

Insisting to use their own pilots over more experienced european pilots, several crashs EVERY year.....

Itīs nothing to do with Inaer and Portuguese pilots...
The accidents are caused by a deficient ops organization, training, maintenance , inactive administration...
Besides... I thought we were also Europeans

[hueyracer]

Yeah....sure...

I have seen (and trained!) some of your "experienced ex-military portugeese" pilots....

If a company considers an ex-military pilot with just about 700 hours total time an "experienced pilot" for a medium twin on fire fighting-sorry, that should be a "no go"....

[Clavileņo]

If a company considers an ex-military pilot with just about 700 hours total time an "experienced pilot" for a medium twin on fire fighting-sorry, that should be a "no go"....

Youīre right.
But, Itīs not wise generalizing when talking about a huge collective if you are doing it with limited experience.

[merlin_driver]

hueyracer:
regarding "several crashes every year", do these occur in Portugal or in Spain? It's not the same country, and not the same company (I don't work for any) Also, can you name any accidents that happened with former Portuguese Air Force pilots?

All of the "portugeese (sic) 700 hr" INAER guys come from the same squadron, and I believe they are a bit more experienced that 700 hours, though not quite a lot, I admit.
Did they tell you about their work in the Air Force? Regularly flying in the North Atlantic, day and night Sar Ops, 45 kts in the winter, over 300 NM offshore (one of the guys that flies there went to 350 Nm to pick up a fisherman from a fishing vessel, does anyone else in Europe do this?). They all left the Air Force as Captains, and did quite well, I flew with all of them. I understand your concern about "hours", but most of their flight time is turbine multi engine in real IFR, not VFR traffic patterns...


Also, some of them did Sim training with CHC Norway in the old Puma days, and we now train with the excellent outfit at the CAE Merlin Sim at RAF Benson. Which helps explain why the Portuguese Air Force has flown 50.000 hours of SAR Ops in the North Atlantic since 1977 with zero accidents.
Can you name any other outfit/company/country that matches that?

Best wishes

[RicardoGarces]

wow. Guys come on... this is escalating.

Hueyracer, I know that most people when think about the Iberian Peninsula, the first thing that comes to their minds is Bullfights and Antonio Banderas.

Unlike many others I think that when someone who is not Iberian makes a reference to us "Portuguese pilots" and is actually addressing a National from Spain is quite a honorable thing, because they are indeed our brothers and our first King was the son of one of the daughters of the Spanish Emperor Afonso VI.

( And I thank Clavileņo for sticking out for us. Muchas gracias hermano. )

I don't think it is wise to generalize either. There are good and bad pilots, from the military or commercial paths.

I believe in your experienced statement, but I must intervene and defend most of my instructors that were/ are Air Force ( although I followed the commercial path). They were top notch and I think we were well taught.

We have a pretty solid safety record here in Portugal. The only two major accidents I can recall from the last 8 years are one related to firefighting in which lack of experience was the reason ( the guy was really inexperienced... a tragedy allowing him to get on the chopper ). And there was a crash with a Jet Ranger I think that was covering a rally, but everyone was ok.

I am not aware of what's going on in Spain and what is Inaer's safety record at the present time, but I don't think there are many Portuguese pilots flying there... I might be wrong.

Back to the Air Force subject... Portuguese Air Force is a very Honorable Institution, and even if you consider those pilots you met un-experienced, the Air Force has a pristine safety record, both in FW and Rotors. They fly the old Alloettes and there is also a few Merlins, which as you probably know are used for SAR, and even without that many experience as you say they have saved thousands of lives.

Malabo. I have nothing against the KA32's, I have seen them around and it amazes me the high power those machines show. But apart from the heavy lifting and firefighting those helicopters are just too powerful. I cannot even start to imagine how much is the operational cost of such aircraft, and while there is 1 on the sky, could probable be 3 AS350B3 or AS355.

and Malabo, there has never been a crash with KA32's. If you thought that Hueyracer was making reference with the KA32's envolved in accidents.

Cheers guys!

[hueyracer]

Ok, guys, first let us please not start the discussion about military/civil pilots (AGAIN)-that discussion doesnīt lead anywhere, and there are no winners/losers on this game...

Second:
I donīt know how many differences Portugal filed from JAR-FCL, but one of my portugese copilots during firefighting had a total time of just about 300 hours (on R22), holding an ATPL(H) with that-howīs THAT possible?
(Non-ex-military, by the way).

Regarding portugese pilots/INAER-sorry for the misunderstanding.....i didnīt mean to throw both of them in one pot....i should have seperated the two topics more clearly...

Sure there are also experienced pilots in Portugal....
But afai have heard, some of them prefer flying in Brasil (with their experience)...

What i am saying (and this doesnīt only refer to Portugal, but to any other country, two), is that a lot of the "young pilots" (with less than 1500 hours-because that is the limit where the accidents reports seperate "beginner" from "experienced") lost track of what they are ABLE to do-and what they are UNABLE to do.

I understand everyone in the business always looking for a job...
But 3 out of 4 portugese CoPilots i flew with (in one year) were pretty much convinced they were godīs gift to the rotary world (with just about 500 hours), but couldnīt even land a helicopter properly......

But again that doesnīt only apply to portugese pilots....

Interesting to see what they are going to use the KA32īs for....

[merlin_driver]

hueyracer:
in this forum some comments in the past have been made regarding flying in Spain/Portugal which are a bit "snob", so sorry if I misunderstood you.

Regarding the civil/military discussion, I have flown SAR in the military for the past 10 years, and I fail to understand why the military should do better a mission which is 100% civilian. In Portugal we do most of the offshore SAR because we have the equipment (EH101) and we train hard, but we are not supermen...
I know this is not the view shared by other members of the forum, and I understand that the military "ethos" sometimes makes you think you are the best thing around. When I did my first Sim in Norway, at Helikopter Service in Stavanger, I was still a 100 hrs copilot, but I went there thinking "What do these civilians have to teach us?". I got the lesson of a lifetime, as I met some of the best professionals I have ever had the fortune to work with, and it was indeed very humbling. What I learned in that simulator and with those pilots is absolutely priceless.
Fly safe

[RicardoGarces]

I am glad the conversation got back to good ground. Ideas and experiences can be shared without people escalating into discussions.

HueyRacer, can I ask you where did you fly firefighting? Was it here in Portugal?

From what I have heard sometimes they do employ more inexperienced co-pilots in firefighting but the reason is for "language coordination". Many pilots that come here to fly are unable to speak Portuguese and as you know coordination is imperative with the ground firefighting crews.

I am myself an in-experienced pilot and I agree what you say regarding us "young pilots", that's why I like so much my R44 I am not in a hurry to get to larger, faster, better, machines.

From what I know, Portugal Aeronautical Authority ( INAC ) follows JAA by the book. A standard CPL(H) IR (H) is attainable with 185 hours and you get a frozen ATPL ( with 25 hours SIM training ).
Most part of training is conducted either in R22/R44 and Schweizer 300, like anywhere else.

Regarding the Air Force, they do make more hours than the commercial path, because before having the chance to fly helicopters they start with FW.

Being "cocky" is not a military thing... it's a pilot's thing. Even if the pilots are screw ups. ( follow Chuck's adventures from "ChickenWings" ).

Some pilots do have CLP(A/H) IR, FI, and Cocky Rating

Back to the subject PORTUGAL HEMS

I think starting in January 2013 we will witness some power moves at some companies. It is still to early to understand what will be going on but the new contract will be for 5 years, so everyone will certainly be interested. Whoever wins the contract will have to integrate the actual helicopter fleet and airplanes from the state company, so it will not be that easy... Let's wait and see

Cheers!

[hueyracer]

Yes, i also flew in Portugal.......on several bases......with portugese Co-Pilots....as you said...

Some of them where really good...otherīs werenīt...


While i can still see a use for the A109īs and he 412īs, i am still curious how often they are going to use the KA32īs...

How often do they fly nowadays?

[RicardoGarces]

During the winter I think they use the KA32's in works related to droughts. During the summer in firefighting they use it a lot:

Last report 15/5/2012 - 18/07/2012

85 Flights - 124:49:00 - they dropped 1020 buckets of water, aprox 4,080,000 liters of water.

I don't condone the use of these helicopters. I wish we had even more, but I do question the operational advantage VS other options.

With hope someone out there has experience in this matter and would spare a couple minutes writing their point of view, would be great. We are here to learn

[CS-Hover]

Every single day, firefighting....

In the winter, they do some SAR (land mainly) and now and then, some HEMS -and yes, i don't think it is a proper HEMS machine... but who make the rules, like to "re-invent" the wheel...

In the line with this, there are a "line of tought", that says that the EH101 should/must firefight (wherever this means/cost ... ) - what these people really now, beats me...

If the "coastal" SAR, was given more often to the Ka32 leaving the EH101 to the long range SAR (and islands, for now...) and around Lisbon, where the base is near... more missions could be done by them, as well accepted stable platform.

Portugal, was/is one of the first European countries with a 24/24 HEMS service ( between hospitals and crash site to hospital) and with a very good safety record (in line with appens with the Portuguese Air Force)

In the other hand, when the last contract (for HEMS) has "design" the only thing missing was saying the type (company??), since the requirements where cleary made for a given type, excluding "better" machines...

Crusing speeds better than 100 kts with less than 5 yers old machine.... for that size/category all other type have much better cruising speeds, than the winner....no?

During many years, one of the primary requirements was a medical seat at the patient head (like eE135, Ec145, MD900 or Bbell429), but someone forgot that ... ...for an A109 win, maybe?

So, the ideia with this, is group the cards and deal again.... will see how much better it can be.

[Vertical751]

Just a small correction: there are only a very few portuguese pilots flying in Brasil ( and other foreigners for that matter ). Brazilian law doesnīt permit any pilots from "outside" ( with some very peculiar exceptions ).

The portuguese guys who fly there are, generally, brazilian citizens as well.

Cheers,

[merlin_driver]

The Merlin could do firefighting. At 8000+ Eur per hour I just don't think that is a good idea, especially as the Ka-32 is an excellent firefighting machine, much better than the Merlin.