21stCen

Latest update from USAF including video of briefing.
(still only preliminary information)
Air Force begins CV-22 crash investigation | hurlburt, investigation, air - Northwest Florida Daily News

Jack Carson

The Air Force has launched an investigation of Wednesday’s incident, but if it turns out anything like the Air Force’s last V-22 crash probe, politics and denial could obscure the truth. In 2010, an Air Force V-22 crashed in Afghanistan, killing four people. The crash investigator, Brig. Gen. Donald Harvel, concluded that engine failure could have been a factor. But his superiors, eager to protect the high-tech aircraft’s reputation, allegedly leaned on Harvel to shift the blame to the V-22′s crew. “There was absolutely a lot of pressure to change my report,” Harvel told Air Force Times.

SansAnhedral

Bottom line is that if you take the time to actually read the report, there was not a single shred of hard evidence that there was an engine failure. Suspicions based on suspect observations do not yield a factual conclusion. Pretty simple. I'm sure there was a lot of pressure to change a factually unsubstantiated conclusion, as there should be. The pilot was indeed flying far outside the envelope once again, much too fast at that altitude and approach distance. Occam's razor.

And Jack, if you're going to repost "contributions" from our esteemed "objective" colleague David Axe, at least have the common decency to link to his article or source your quote.

SASless

Unless I am mistaken....did not one of he pilots state there was a loss of engine power just prior to the crash in Afghanistan?

As the CVR and Data Recorders were not recovered....it would be hard to state with definity what the engines were doing would it not? Just saying!

So one's suggestion it was all Pilot Error might be a bit hard to substantiate in my opinion. When a General Officer is willing (in this political Air Force extant) to state publicly he was pressured to change his findings (during what is billed to be an independent and objective investigation) I would have to view such final findings with a jaundiced eye at the least.

SansAnhedral

There was specifically no report of any abnormal engine issues from the crew or anyone in contact with them

Generals clash on cause of April Osprey crash - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times


Now heres a real interesting tidbit I just noticed:

(from same article linked above)

and from Two airmen injured in Osprey crash released from hospital | hurlburt, injured, airmen - Northwest Florida Daily News

If this is correct, then Maj Brian Luce was the previously unidentified lone cockpit crew survivor from the only other previous CV-22 crash. What luck.

SASless

If I were Luce....I would take up a different kind of work....as the third time is the charm so I am told!

He probably was the Aircraft Commander on the second crash....and the Co-Pilot on the first crash.

Fate is a terrible and sinister force.....but a dear Friend when it is favors you.

FH1100 Pilot

Wow. Glad he survived his second brush with death.

You'd think that Maj. Luce would've learned the first time.

But nooooooo...

I'll bet you real money that he never sets foot inside a V-22 ever again.

Unless it's on permanent display in the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola.

In the section called, "Mistakes We've Made."

TukTuk BoomBoom

Yeah he'll probably retire from flying and spend all his time posting on the internet..

Ive worked with plenty of guys that have crashed more than once, ive had one myself.
Im sure he'll put it behind him and get back to work.
"3rd times a charm" ...you guys sound like a couple of old ladies.

SASless

Pilot Error was it Tuks?

Tcabot113

Well this time he can not claim memory loss. The recorders all survived.

TC

FH1100 Pilot

Fixed it for ya!

And hey, I'm not retired. Why, just this morning I spent some quality time out earning money and cheating death in a Sikorsky S-55 that is...yikes!...older than me. (Maybe older than SAS too! Definitely older than a certain N. Lappos who wasn't even a glimmer in his dear daddy's eye when this one was forged from steel at the iron works in Bridgeport, Connecticut.) I only thought I knew how to fly until checking out in this thing. (And do they even let me fly one of the two turbine conversions we have? Nooooooooooo, I get stuck with the round motor that I can barely kick-start on a good day anymore. Eh- it may be my own fault. I may have said *something* about having all the damn turbine time I ever needed or wanted. Teaches me to open my big fat mouth...)

But I digress.

And I wonder...

After all these years, the venerable S-55 is still dogging around, giving relative "youngsters" like me a chance to fly something my father thought was modern and new! back in 1954

Think the V-22 will still be around 60 years hence?

Somehow I doubt it. They'll all have probably crashed and burned by then. That seems to be their modus operandi.

If Maj. Luce is smart...and we sincerely hope he is and is not permanently grounded...he'll spend the rest of his days flying something safer than a tiltrotor.

And anyways, the question was never answered: What kind of "gunnery" can a V-22 do? Somebody finally figure out a way to mount a forward-shooting gun on that thing? Fifty cal. on the wings timed to fire through the proprotors, perhaps? The answer to this ought to be good!

SASless

Yea....I am not very experienced....never done the crash thing....or even a chargeable incident.....guess I still have something to learn yet....but alas....I retired before I got to that chapter of the book.

Hand cranked S-55.....oh my...that brings back memories of Iron Machines and Iron Men! I hate to admit it....but they were still in service when I was a nubbin learning my trade at Rucker.

Used to watch them trundle off down the heliport at Hanchey and disappear out of sight at the end to the south.....and finally re-appear way off in the distance still below takeoff elevation....blades looking like they were going to clap hands. That was with one instructor, two students, a bag of gas....and a verbal message for cargo.

A few rides with a Maintenance Test Pilot convinced me there was a reason I had picked Chinooks for my ride of choice. Almost two years later....the Oklahoma National Guard was still flying them operationally.....that would be 1970 as I recall.

Bristow attempted to lure me into doing a Whirlwind Conversion but Jack Trigg ran out of Beer money before he could get me drunk enough to agree to do so.

Good thing probably or I would have found myself off to Nigeria twenty years earlier than i wound up going.

Now FH.....when you start talking about real Sikorsky Iron....the old Moe JV (S-56 or CH-37 Mojave) to the unwashed....now that was a horse sure enough. Two really really big Pratt & Whitney Round Many Pistoned engines....drum of lube oil in the cabin....ladder up into the cockpit....now that was a Man's machine.

Igor builds helicopters!

Lonewolf_50

FH, if you go back a few posts, you'll see two options for gunnery already mentioned.

As to Major Luce ... his decisions to keep on flying will probably be best addressed after the USAF has finished its accident investigation. I hope he heals from whatever injuries he has sustained in the mishap, and am pleased to note that the V-22 is crashworthy, at least to a certain extent.

Regarding how a bird ends up on its back: lots of ways.

SansAnhedral

Then it must really bake your noodle that there are any CH53s left that can get in the air.

• On 10 May 1977, 54 people were killed in a CH-53 crash in Israel.
  
• On 21 October 1977, 31 US Marines serving in Operation Fortress Lightning were killed in a CH53 crash in Mindoro, Philippines during sling load operations due to a design flaw in the tail rotor drive.
  
• Oct. 18, 1982 A malfunction on a Tustin-based CH-53E led to parts flying off the machine, causing $30,000 damage. No one was injured.
  
• Nov. 30, 1982 A Tustin-based CH-53E lost cargo and fuel tank, causing $71,000 damage.
  
• Feb. 10, 1983 A main rotor sheared on a CH-53E during a flight near San Diego. No one was injured. Damage was reported at $67,000.
  
• On 27 April, 1983, a CH-53D crashed in the Atlantic off the coast of Virginia. The crash resulted in the drowning of Marine First Lieutenant David A. Boyle. The suit brought by Boyle's father went to the Supreme Court.
  
• July 19, 1983 While a CH-53E was taxiing at Tustin after landing, parts in the tail section were damaged when a bearing disintegrated. Damage was estimated at $45,000.
  
• Sept. 27, 1983 A CH-53E about to land at Norfolk, Va., lost tail rotor power but managed to get down. Bearings and disconnect coupling were damaged. Damage was $42,400.
  
• Jan. 19, 1984 A CH-53E landing at the Naval Air Station in Sigonella, Italy, lost hydraulic pressure when its main gearbox cooler fan shattered. Flying parts also damaged the oil lines and the rotor drive shaft. Damage was set at $56,000.
  
• Feb. 14, 1984 A CH-53E with 45 troops aboard made an emergency landing during an East Coast operation after failure of the main rotor damper, which automatically stabilized the bounce of aircraft.
  
• March 4, 1984 Crew aboard of a CH-53E reported hearing a loud bang and severe vibrations. Aircraft made an emergency landing in field. The main gearbox cooler fan had disintegrated. No one was injured.
  
• On 24 March, 1984 A CH-53D crashes into mountain in Korea during a night troop operation, killing 29.
  
• On 1 June, 1984 A Tustin-based CH-53E was lifting a truck from the deck of a ship for transport to San Clemente Island during an exercise when a sling attached to the truck broke, sending a shock wave into aircraft that caused it to disintegrate. Four crewmen were killed.
  
• On 19 November, 1984 a CH-53E on a routine training mission at Camp Lejeune, N.C., exploded in mid-air as it was lifting a seven-ton howitzer. Six killed, 11 injured.
  
• Feb. 7, 1985 A CH-53E crash-landed at Tustin Marine Corps Air Station as it was being put through manuevers that simulate the loss of power in automatic flight controls. Four persons were injured.
  
• April 3, 1985 A CH-53E from Tustin suffered $36,000 in unspecified damages while flying a mission. Specific damage to aircraft was never reported. No one was injured.
  
• On 6 May, 1985, A CH-53D experiences a transmission failure and falls into Sea of Japan while returning to Futenma AB from Iwakuni AB, Yamaguchi Prefecture, killing 17. It belonged to the 462nd Helicopter Squadron, 36th Wing, 1st Group, USMC, based at Futenma AB.
  
• July 12, 1985 A CH-53D appeared to have struck a logging cable during tactical formation training at Okinawa, killing four. Accident under investigation.
  
• July 13, 1985 A CH-53E from a Tustin squadron was on a flight in Okinawa when it struck a logging cable and exploded. Four persons were killed.
  
• July 17, 1985 A CH-53E made an emergency landing on the East Coast after its main gearbox lost lubrication from disintegration of its primary oil pump. Broken pieces damaged the secondary oil pump.
  
• July 19, 1985 A CH-53E operating in the Philippines was hovering at 60 feet when it lost power to the tail rotor, which sheared off. Damage was estimated at $188,000.
  
• On 25 August, 1985 a CH-53E from New River, N.C., was flying a routine supply and passenger run from Tustin to Twentynine Palms during a training operation when it caught fire and crashed in Laguna Hills. One of the three crew members was killed and the aircraft was a total loss.
  
• Sept. 12, 1985 A CH-53E with three persons aboard developed fire in an engine and made an emergency landing near Norfolk, Va., Damage estimated at $38,000.
  
• Sept. 24, 1985 During a routine practice flight at Norfolk, Va., a CH-53E developed problems during its initial climb after takeoff. Bearings in the main transmission had disintegrated. No one was injured.
  
• On 9 May, 1986, four Marines were killed and a fifth was injured in a CH-53E crash Friday near Twentynine Palm. The accident, which occurred during training exercises, was the fifth crash in the previous two years of a Super Stallion.
  
• Oct. 21, 1986 A CH-53E from Tustin was returning to base when it developed transmission problems and the pilot made a precautionary landing in a farm field in Irvine. No one was injured.
  
• On 8 January, 1987, a Marine Corps CH-53E Super Stallion helicopter crashed during night training, killing all five crew members. The helicopter went down on the Salton Sea Test Range about 8:30 p.m. while practicing night landings for troop deployment
  
• On 20 March, 1989, a Sea Stallion crashed and burned while on maneuvers off P'ohang, a town on the mountainous east coast of South Korea killing 22. Sixteen other Marines, including one on the ground, were injured in the crash.
  
• On 18 May, 1990, A Marine Corps CH-53D Sea Stallion helicopter en route to its base at the Marine Corps Air Station in Tustin crashed in Imperial County, killing one crew member and injuring five others. At the time in 1990, more than 200 servicemen had been killed in accidents involving the CH-53A, CH-53D and CH-53E since 1969.
  
• On 14 March 1994, A Marine officer was killed and four Marines were injured when their Tustin-based CH-53D landed tail-first and burst into flames on a military runway in Northern California.
  
• On 9 May, 1996, a CH-53E crashed at Sikorsky's Stratford plant, killing four employees on board. That led to the Navy grounding all CH-53Es and MH-53Es
  
• On 4 February 1997, two CH-53s collided in the "Helicopter Disaster" in Israel. A total of 73 people died in the accident.
  
• On 10 August, 2000, a Sea Dragon crashed in the Gulf of Mexico near Corpus Christi and resulted in the deaths of its crew of four. The helicopters were later returned to service with improved swash plate duplex bearings and new warning systems for the bearings.
  
• On 20 January, 2002 a CH-53E crash in Afghanistan killed two crew members and injured five others. Defense Department officials said the early-morning crash was the result of mechanical problems with the helicopter.
  
• On 2 April, 2002, a Navy MH-53E Sea Dragon of HM-14 BuNo 163051 crashed on the runway at Bahrain International Airport. All 18 people on board survived with only a few cases of minor injuries.
  
• On 27 June, 2002, a Navy MH-53E Sea Dragon of Helicopter Combat Support Squadron 4 (HC-4) "Black Stallions" crashed in a hard landing at NAS Sigonella, Sicily. No one was injured, but the aircraft was written off.
  
• On 16 July, 2003, a Navy MH-53E Sea Dragon of Helicopter Combat Support Squadron 4 (HC-4) "Black Stallions" crashed near the town of Palagonia, about 10 miles west-southwest of Naval Air Station Sigonella, killing the four member crew. The flight was on a routine training mission. One of the fatalities was the HC-4 executive officer.
  
• On 13 August 2004 a US Marine CH-53D from Marine Corps Air Station Futenma crashed into Okinawa International University on Okinawa, Japan due to a maintenance error. The crash caused no serious damage or injuries but was a major international incident because of strained relations about the US use of Futenma.
  
• On 25 January, 2005, a Navy MH-53E Sea Dragon of HM-14 crashed into the Atlantic Ocean, 30 miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, VA. The helicopter was on a routine AMCM training mission when it suffered a catastrophic main transmission failure. All eight crew members onboard survived but the aircraft was destroyed.
  
• On 26 January 2005 a CH-53E carrying 30 Marines and one Navy Corpsman crashed in Rutbah, Iraq, killing all 31 on board. A sandstorm was determined as the cause of the accident. This crash was the main fatal event in the day of the Iraq war with the highest number of US fatalities
  
• On 16 February, 2005, an MH-53E Sea Dragon from Helicopter Combat Support Squadron 4 (HC-4), based at Naval Air Station Sigonella, Sicily, crashed on the base at approximately 4:20 p.m, injuring the four crew members.
  
• On 17 February, 2006, two American CH-53Es carrying a combined Marine Corps and Air Force crew collided during a training mission over the Gulf of Aden, resulting in ten deaths and two injuries.
  
• On 16 January, 2008 a Navy MH-53E on a routine training mission crashed approximately four miles south of Corpus Christi, Texas. Three crew members died in the crash and one crew member was taken to local hospital for treatment and survived.
  
• On 29 March 2011, a Marine CH-53D from MCBH Kaneohe Bay crashed into the bay, killing 1 and injuring 3.
  
• On 19 January 2012, a Marine CH-53 crashed in southern Afghanistan. Six International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) troops, all U.S. Marines were killed in the accident.

The CH53 had a worse week in July 1985 than the V22's entire operational history to this point with 4 incidents and 8 lives lost.

There have been 3 incidents in 5 years of operation for the V22, and you think they'll all be gone to attrition over 60.

SASless

Sans.....you over look the common link in almost every one of the events....they were operated by Marines.

If we eliminated that one cause....think how short the list would be?

FH's comment was a bit over the top.....but so is your reply as it would suggest the Marines have problems operating their 53's which is not true either.

The 53 in all of its variants has been an excellent machine...starting clear back in the Vietnam War and continuing on today and with the new "K" model...well into the future.

The Osprey is just getting started and has yet to prove itself as have the 53....46, 47, 60, and other long serving aircraft.

A side note.....the Military Channel had a program on the introduction of the Osprey to Iraq and was filmed on site with the Marine Squadron that was deployed.

What was interesting was seeing how the first big OP they performed had been planned for three full days ahead of time, with dozens and dozens of hours of planning, briefings, and preparation. The security element was made up of Bell UH-1N's and AH-1W's from the same launch site. The Ospreys went off high and wide while the helicopters went to the LZ's and set up for the Ospreys.

Hard to see the real advantage in time or loads carried due to that. Perhaps by being high.....they Ospreys were out of range of small arms fire and light AAA or MANPADS....but that would be the only difference.

Much was made of the Osprey's ability to land in dusty conditions....but with the downwash it creates....it does need that capability.

Also I found it interesting to see the Ramp gun being the only defensive armament on the Osprey. I compare its arc of fire compared to the 53's setup of two side door guns and a ramp gun....meaning coverage from just aft of the nose of the aircraft all the way around to the other side of the nose of the aircraft.....which would be far more useful and effective than just the tail gun on the Osprey. But as we are told....Ospreys and the tactics employed by them doesn't plan for landings in Hot LZ's....right?

FH1100 Pilot

Wow! All those '53 accidents/incidents since 1977! (Except that it looks like two of them - reported on July 12 and July 13, 1985 respectively might be the same one.) Thirty-five years and how many aircraft produced?

Sans, you might better have posted all Bell 206 accidents since introduction of the type. That's the ship I normally fly (aside from this wacky summer job flying the S-55). If you'd done that I might never want to get into a 206 again!

But yet somehow the Bell 206 was rated the "safest aircraft ever produced." Not safest helicopter, safest aircraft. How can this be?

Sans, you note that the V-22 has only had 3 "incidents" in the last five years. But this means nothing. It's curious that you minimize (trivialize?) fatal accidents by calling them incidents. In fact, Wikipedia notes seven "incidents" in the last five years if we widen the scope of the word.

However, none of this changes the fact that, unlike the Bell 206, the tiltrotor is still an inherently unsafe, defective design. Has been since Bell started messing with the concept in 1953. Always will be. History will prove this to be so. V-22 production will *not* continue beyond what's already been allocated. There will be no new tiltrotor designs produced. The small number of V-22's that do exist will be long gone in a few years - much fewer than 60.

And that's okay: I can wait.

Lonewolf_50

Nope. Check flight hours logged versus mishaps. Nothing inherently unsafe about it. As with any aircraft, the Osprey can kill you.

Welcom to Aviation, FH.

I know a few of the folks who died in those CH-53 accidents. SAS, while I appreciate that you were attempting to be humorous, I'll counter your jab at the Marines with the long standing Army theory of helicopter pilot training: high school to flight school to the grave. (There appears to have been some improvement in recent history ... )

FWIW, Sans: a CH-53 (Japanese version) in Japan that went down (suspected swashplate issues) doesn't look to be on the list. Some folks believe that the mishap at Sikorsky in 1996, the one in Japan, and the one in Corpus Christi in 2000 had the same root cause: that newfangled dry swashplate bearing. (Before the bearing monitor panel finally got implemented ... )

Above considered, the CH-53 is an amazing machine, and has done good service for our nation. I hope the K keeps that legacy alive.

SASless

Lone.....don't go looking for an insult where there was none.....to the Marines that is. My barb was pointed elsewhere.

Brother Dixson has discussed the 53 crash at the factory here at pprune in the past and also other places.

I do not recall the whole of his explanation of what happened but as I recall the aircraft was in a stable hover at something like 200 feet (maybe) and for some reason rolled inverted and crashed.

If John sees this he will probably weigh in this.

As to the High School, Flight School, Grave comment.....it was very true....expecially during the Vietnam War when about 2500 Helicopter Pilots were killed.....including all services. Even if one took a detour through College for four years....way too many good Men wound up dead. I care not to insult any service about hose losses....or the ones that are happening yet today in Afghanistan.

Last time I checked we all worked for the same Uncle.

SansAnhedral

The post was to mention that the V22 has fared objectively no worse than the CH53 over time. If you consider the CH53 as not having problems (which I find laughable if you do with the tail rotor drive and duplex bearing issues), then you have to concede the same thing to the Osprey.

Apparently 115 Es and 265 A & Ds. Not a huge number, seeing as how apparently 339 service members died in accidents in the CH53 between 1969 and the present..and thats just according to the information in this list.

Ok well if you want to include "incidents" in a similar vein to those in the 7 listed on the Wikipedia page (like compressor stalls), then in a 5 year period in the mid 80s the CH53 had 22 incidents...and that's from from this surely incomplete list.

JohnDixson

This was a brand new aircraft on a production hover test flight. The rotating swashplate bearing ( also brand new ) overheated, failed, then as the pitch links were dragged so as to be non-vertical, the main blades followed the pitch links and the blades contacted the tail. The aircraft fell in from approx. 200 ft, but hit upright. Sikorsky crew.
Thanks,
John Dixson