Accident nr Lake Vyrnwy Hotel, Wales
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Crab - couldn't agree more, that's why I said that most d/wind approaches end up in a hover OGE whether you like it or not... Implying you cannot flare so must make the approach slow and progressive... Only exception being maintaining sufficient speed to turn into wind last min with a flare which clearly wouldn't work into a confined area but would be my preferred method where space is plentiful... I agree that it's well worth highlighting though 
(as well as the possibility of jumping straight into VRing with a harsh downwind flare)
(as well as the possibility of jumping straight into VRing with a harsh downwind flare)
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Old and horrified. Many thanks for the photos, it adds a certain clarity to the debate... but having read the entire thread up to that point i felt we were dealing with a really challenging site. It looks absolutely fine on the photos, absolutely typical of any number of sites here in the lakes...
Crab im slowly getting to grips with some of the flight regimes you discuss, many thanks for articulating it in a manner which is digestable, rather than just saying it 'happens'..
But while the confined area looks real easy from an armchair, if the wind isnt favourable , or perhaps a downdraught from the steep hill.. it will become a handful even with a fist full of power. So why bother going on in in the first place? Many years ago a friend of mine over pitched an enstrom and since then i love taking on confined areas but always insist on either nil wind or headwind, always solo in the 22 and always light in the 44. I have a fear of uncertainty and an even bigger fear of dying. My other little habit is glancing in at the gps versus airspeed just to check a rogue tailwind has not sneaked up on me!!... Plus smoke, ripples on water, direction any birds are facing etc etc..
Its easy to sit and comment but to me that site looks fine. I guess the poor chap must have had a real bad wind or something.. and i find myself questioning the thought process behind committing to land, if indeed wind or poor judgement was a factor. And good man the engineer who defended the aircraft, if memory serves me correct 90% of accidents are pilot error. There is nothing wrong with those machines its just we cant fly them.
Crab im slowly getting to grips with some of the flight regimes you discuss, many thanks for articulating it in a manner which is digestable, rather than just saying it 'happens'..
But while the confined area looks real easy from an armchair, if the wind isnt favourable , or perhaps a downdraught from the steep hill.. it will become a handful even with a fist full of power. So why bother going on in in the first place? Many years ago a friend of mine over pitched an enstrom and since then i love taking on confined areas but always insist on either nil wind or headwind, always solo in the 22 and always light in the 44. I have a fear of uncertainty and an even bigger fear of dying. My other little habit is glancing in at the gps versus airspeed just to check a rogue tailwind has not sneaked up on me!!... Plus smoke, ripples on water, direction any birds are facing etc etc..
Its easy to sit and comment but to me that site looks fine. I guess the poor chap must have had a real bad wind or something.. and i find myself questioning the thought process behind committing to land, if indeed wind or poor judgement was a factor. And good man the engineer who defended the aircraft, if memory serves me correct 90% of accidents are pilot error. There is nothing wrong with those machines its just we cant fly them.
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Nice area. You could land a few Chinooks in that field- It's not the machines falt when it's misused- Some people have more $$$ than scense' Looks like some one who just didn't fly too offten & It bit him.
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Glad that both the pilot and passenger are both ok.
Having read the threads and landed at this site many times once when there were two helicopters already at the site. It seems alot of you are just having a dig at Robinson Helicopters. One thing is for certain the pilot didnt take off with the intention of crashing here or at anyother site !and nor was it his intention on purchasing or hiring to come to such a ending - I bet the unlucky pilot didnt even have his lunch.
10000 owners cant be wrong.
Having read the threads and landed at this site many times once when there were two helicopters already at the site. It seems alot of you are just having a dig at Robinson Helicopters. One thing is for certain the pilot didnt take off with the intention of crashing here or at anyother site !and nor was it his intention on purchasing or hiring to come to such a ending - I bet the unlucky pilot didnt even have his lunch.
10000 owners cant be wrong.
Join Date: May 2008
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You's boy's in the UK call that a confined area......
I been on fires where there would be 20 machines parked and staging from an area like that......I'm on a job right now parking a B2 and 35metre survey bird on a 170ft line at a hotel tighter than that doing 3 approachs a day heavy.......
Not dissing you boys, but come on, something missing in the CAA training syllabus if you think that is a confined area and you need to do OGE checks going in. Most places in Canada in the winter she's a no hover landing anyways......Like I said, not being funny/ smart just saying and I'm an expat brit....
I been on fires where there would be 20 machines parked and staging from an area like that......I'm on a job right now parking a B2 and 35metre survey bird on a 170ft line at a hotel tighter than that doing 3 approachs a day heavy.......Not dissing you boys, but come on, something missing in the CAA training syllabus if you think that is a confined area and you need to do OGE checks going in. Most places in Canada in the winter she's a no hover landing anyways......Like I said, not being funny/ smart just saying and I'm an expat brit....
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
newfieboy, I think it was uniformkilo and aucky on page one that gave us the impression it was a confined area site. Hence the advice given by some earlier. Then the photos appeared. 
It certainly looks as if you could set up a Regt FARP in that field, Mrs Miggens' pie shop in one corner and await the hoards!
It certainly looks as if you could set up a Regt FARP in that field, Mrs Miggens' pie shop in one corner and await the hoards!
Newfieboy
Love it....
Classic....
Newfieboy--- How ya been? You make it home for christmas? I now have a home to go to.... Will PM you here in a day or 2...
You's boy's in the UK call that a confined area...
It certainly looks as if you could set up a Regt FARP in that field, Mrs Miggens' pie shop in one corner and await the hoards!
Newfieboy--- How ya been? You make it home for christmas? I now have a home to go to.... Will PM you here in a day or 2...
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Back to Vyrnwy
I think the pictures make it look bigger than it is. Either that, or it's a case of Honey I shrank the Robbie.
There certainly is enough space to land at Vyrnwy, and I guess everyone would applaud the provision by the hotel of a free well-maintained facility to land on within walking distance of lunch. The views from the restaurant are amazing, and the food is great.
It's not that it's too small for a safe arrival, especially for an experienced pilot in a powerful machine. I've seen at least 8 parked there at the same time. (It was tight).
But to an R22 pilot who may have 50 hours a year on a good year arriving overhead and looking at the setting it's in (slopes, trees, hills, lake, fences etc) it can seem quite small, especially when compared to the generous acres of flat grass available at training airfields. Add those factors to the need to the need to plan every approach in an R22 to keep in Tx as long as possible, and it can add up to quite a tiny site with not much margin for error.
There certainly is enough space to land at Vyrnwy, and I guess everyone would applaud the provision by the hotel of a free well-maintained facility to land on within walking distance of lunch. The views from the restaurant are amazing, and the food is great.
It's not that it's too small for a safe arrival, especially for an experienced pilot in a powerful machine. I've seen at least 8 parked there at the same time. (It was tight).
But to an R22 pilot who may have 50 hours a year on a good year arriving overhead and looking at the setting it's in (slopes, trees, hills, lake, fences etc) it can seem quite small, especially when compared to the generous acres of flat grass available at training airfields. Add those factors to the need to the need to plan every approach in an R22 to keep in Tx as long as possible, and it can add up to quite a tiny site with not much margin for error.
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Mods - isn't it time that a new thread was created for all the chat about relative safety of different helos?
If I was Lake Vyrnwy I'd be rather concerned about others (eg the media) associating the extent of posts here with the safety of my heli landing area. I don't think anyone here is saying it's dangerous but we live in times of vulnerability of heli landing places, often on grounds of noise and safety, and should avoid giving anyone unfair grounds for concern.
I quite agree: the R22 discussion has been moved to R22 Operational safety
SP
If I was Lake Vyrnwy I'd be rather concerned about others (eg the media) associating the extent of posts here with the safety of my heli landing area. I don't think anyone here is saying it's dangerous but we live in times of vulnerability of heli landing places, often on grounds of noise and safety, and should avoid giving anyone unfair grounds for concern.
I quite agree: the R22 discussion has been moved to R22 Operational safety
SP
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Lake Vyrnwy Hotel
I posted what I thought was helpful advice about flying into this delightful site.
My flying school has a nice useful book full of helpful tips, advice and photographs of landing sites within easy reach.
Lake Vyrnwy was recommended by one of my instructors. He started his brief with, 'Its quite a challenging site, you need to be careful because...
For the benefit of others I posted my advice on this forum.
The inevitable 'Sky Gods' posted their usual advice based on limited information and no idea of my experience, loading or actual weather conditions on the days I have visited.
I have scrubbed trips there on numerous occasions because I wasn't happy with the weather.
I have always gone in light, ensuring sufficient power.
Photos posted here are misleading. It is a challenging site, albeit based on my limited 800hrs rotary ( and a couple of thousand fixed wing) experience.
Anyway, take my advice for what its worth. If it causes somebody to think a bit more before setting out for lunch there, great.
PPrune can provide some useful information. However, you do have to trawl through pointless posts to find it.
All the best
HP
My flying school has a nice useful book full of helpful tips, advice and photographs of landing sites within easy reach.
Lake Vyrnwy was recommended by one of my instructors. He started his brief with, 'Its quite a challenging site, you need to be careful because...
For the benefit of others I posted my advice on this forum.
The inevitable 'Sky Gods' posted their usual advice based on limited information and no idea of my experience, loading or actual weather conditions on the days I have visited.
I have scrubbed trips there on numerous occasions because I wasn't happy with the weather.
I have always gone in light, ensuring sufficient power.
Photos posted here are misleading. It is a challenging site, albeit based on my limited 800hrs rotary ( and a couple of thousand fixed wing) experience.
Anyway, take my advice for what its worth. If it causes somebody to think a bit more before setting out for lunch there, great.
PPrune can provide some useful information. However, you do have to trawl through pointless posts to find it.
All the best
HP
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I actually couldnt put it better.
The last post by Hairyplane is exactly what I was trying to achieve,albeit badly.It conveys everything I was trying to say,and hopefully will help another. And also when the pilot involved in this accident hopefully sees this ,he will feel a little less stupid and proud for getting them both out of a bad situation unhurt.We all make mistakes.
Last edited by brantlyb2b; 23rd Jan 2012 at 14:07.
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Brantly B2B
Hi B2B,
Do you really have a Brantly?
Always fancied a go in one. If you fancy a trip to Southam, Warwickshire I'll stand you lunch and lob some fuel in your machine in exhange for a whizz round the block.
Happy to come to you...
Or see you at Lake V???!!
HP
Do you really have a Brantly?
Always fancied a go in one. If you fancy a trip to Southam, Warwickshire I'll stand you lunch and lob some fuel in your machine in exhange for a whizz round the block.
Happy to come to you...
Or see you at Lake V???!!
HP
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A Suitable Site?
For all the people that haven't been to Lake Vyrnwy here's a picture (Courtesy of The_Scout) of the landing site with 8 machines on the ground and room for more.
Well worth a visit, one of the best Sunday lunches a pilot can have!
Although maybe I shouldn't be telling you this as the next time I go to land there I don't want to find 10 helicopters in front of me.
Well worth a visit, one of the best Sunday lunches a pilot can have!
Although maybe I shouldn't be telling you this as the next time I go to land there I don't want to find 10 helicopters in front of me.
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Silsoe,
Mrs Miggins Pie Shop and a bloody shopping mall I would think, with still room for a couple cabs......
Gordy, all good matey, et vous....birdie tells me wedding bells soon, bout time me ole mucker......just scrapped in for Xmas, but away again right after. On my way home again, but getting screwed with airlines....oh the life of a touring pilot eh....
.....interesting a home eh, that mean ya can throw away the
old traveling bag.....Good luck mate and ya know how to reach me if you need a 205/212 working North of the border, we got lots things coming up.......back to the bar flight delayed again. Take care Gordy.... catch up soon hopefully.....Newfie.
Mrs Miggins Pie Shop and a bloody shopping mall I would think, with still room for a couple cabs......
Gordy, all good matey, et vous....birdie tells me wedding bells soon, bout time me ole mucker......just scrapped in for Xmas, but away again right after. On my way home again, but getting screwed with airlines....oh the life of a touring pilot eh....
.....interesting a home eh, that mean ya can throw away the old traveling bag.....
Good luck mate and ya know how to reach me if you need a 205/212 working North of the border, we got lots things coming up.......back to the bar flight delayed again. Take care Gordy.... catch up soon hopefully.....Newfie.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
..and the Gazelle
